2024 Olympics

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cammd said..

Belly25 said..
"The (man/) lady doth protest too much, me thinks."

Windsufering, while I respect your dedication and passion for what you think is the pinnacle of our sport, I have to agree with Rob11, you are pushing crap uphill pretty hard now.

Splitting hairs, arguing extremes instead of generalities, listening with closed ears but a very open mouth, these are the behaviours that old mate Shakespeare is perhaps alluding.

Windsufering, do you have a vested interest in the LT other than an enjoyment of it. Are you really being honest with yourself?

I have sailed every version of our sport (longboard, ultra shortboard (2.1m), speed, surf, slalom, foil, formula, inflatable etc.) and for me windsurf foiling is the only one that has a future in international events for our sport. If that can't be a reality at the Olympics, for whatever reason, I'd prefer no representation.

Not sure I agree with that, I would think wave sailing, free style and speed all have a future, I think the other racing classes have a future as well.

Well said. It beggars belief that someone can talk of "our" sport - a term that encompasses many people who love many different types of windsurfing - and then basically say that only one minority interest in the entire sport deserves international contests. It's not "our" sport if some people are claiming that only their favourite part of it deserves international representation.

Apparently the thousand or more people who are going to do international events this year in T293, RSX, freestyle, Formula, RB, Windsurfer, Kona etc should just cancel their tickets, burn their boards and either turn to foiling or give up the sport at international level.

I don't agree with Windsuffering in many ways, but to criticise him for being too extreme and then say that only one part of the sport has a future in international events is utterly illogical and far more extreme than anything Windsuffering has ever said. And to be honest, I can't see many reasons why if you want to foil, you'd use a windsurfer rather than a kite.

The other strange thing is that still no one has actually produced any evidence to support the claim that going for high performance will grow the sport. It's an ancient approach that was first picked up 35 years ago, around the time the sport's enormous growth stopped. One would think that after 35 years of following the same old approach and seeing the sport shrink year after year, it would be obvious we needed a new approach.

Aaron McIntosh bronze medalist 2000 (IMCO) 4th place 1996 (IMCO); Dorian van Rijsselberghe Gold 2012, 2016 (RS:X) ; Nick Dempsey Bronze 2004 (IMCO), Silver 2012, 2016 (RS:X): Yes

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Chris249 said..
With the greatest of respect (honestly!!!!) to those guys, the fact that you are a champion sailor doesn't mean that you necessarily are a champion at running a class - in fact the opposite can sometimes be true.

If the qualities required for winning championships were the same as the qualities that are required to run a class well, then a great class administrator would also be a great champion racer. But we know that's not the case. One of the world's greatest sporting administrators was Bernie Ecclestone, but he never made it as a racing car driver. Pierre de Coubertin was perhaps the greatest person in history when it came to creating sports events, but he doesn't seem to have been much of an athlete himself. Most of the heads of the IOC have not been great athletes, but they have run the world's greatest sporting competition. The heads of soccer have not been great players, but they have made the game enormously successful. Hoyle Schweitzer and Jim Drake created windsurfing but they were not great champion windsurfers.So since we know for a fact that being a great sports administrator and being a great competitor are not connected, why should we assume that great windsurfer racers know how to make a great class?

Shouldn't we take the lesson of vastly more popular sports, and of windsurfing when it was the world's fastest-growing sport, and accept that the best people on the water may not be the best people to run the sport at all?

You are cherry picking Chris. Plenty of counter examples, such as:

The previous head of the IOC, Jacques Rogge, was a top athlete, winning a world championship and competing in three summer Olympics. The sport he competed in was sailing.

Sebastian Coe won four Olympic medals. After retiring as an athlete, he headed the London bid to host the 2012 Summer Olympics and became chairman of the London Organising Committee for the Olympic Games. In 2007, he was elected a vice-president of the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF). In August 2015, he was elected president of the IAAF.

If you look through the administrators of large international sports they are littered with former competitors. To suggest that sportsmen at the top of their game do not have expert opinions about the equipment used in those sports is doing windsurfing a disservice.

To be honest, I think one of the problems with ISAF, and prior to that the IYRU, RYA, AYF etc., was the shortage of recent high level competitors among the top administrators, and one of the prices paid has been some poor decisions about Olympic class selections.

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Pacey said..

Chris249 said..
With the greatest of respect (honestly!!!!) to those guys, the fact that you are a champion sailor doesn't mean that you necessarily are a champion at running a class - in fact the opposite can sometimes be true.

If the qualities required for winning championships were the same as the qualities that are required to run a class well, then a great class administrator would also be a great champion racer. But we know that's not the case. One of the world's greatest sporting administrators was Bernie Ecclestone, but he never made it as a racing car driver. Pierre de Coubertin was perhaps the greatest person in history when it came to creating sports events, but he doesn't seem to have been much of an athlete himself. Most of the heads of the IOC have not been great athletes, but they have run the world's greatest sporting competition. The heads of soccer have not been great players, but they have made the game enormously successful. Hoyle Schweitzer and Jim Drake created windsurfing but they were not great champion windsurfers.So since we know for a fact that being a great sports administrator and being a great competitor are not connected, why should we assume that great windsurfer racers know how to make a great class?

Shouldn't we take the lesson of vastly more popular sports, and of windsurfing when it was the world's fastest-growing sport, and accept that the best people on the water may not be the best people to run the sport at all?

You are cherry picking Chris. Plenty of counter examples, such as:

The previous head of the IOC, Jacques Rogge, was a top athlete, winning a world championship and competing in three summer Olympics. The sport he competed in was sailing.

Sebastian Coe won four Olympic medals. After retiring as an athlete, he headed the London bid to host the 2012 Summer Olympics and became chairman of the London Organising Committee for the Olympic Games. In 2007, he was elected a vice-president of the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF). In August 2015, he was elected president of the IAAF.

If you look through the administrators of large international sports they are littered with former competitors. To suggest that sportsmen at the top of their game do not have expert opinions about the equipment used in those sports is doing windsurfing a disservice.

To be honest, I think one of the problems with ISAF, and prior to that the IYRU, RYA, AYF etc., was the shortage of recent high level competitors among the top administrators, and one of the prices paid has been some poor decisions about Olympic class selections.

It's not cherry picking Pacey - I didn't know whether or not the IOC or FIFA, for example, had lots of great administrators who were also legendary champions until I looked at their history. I selected them because they run arguably the world's top sporting events, not because I was cherry picking. Their history shows that many top class administrators were not champions. It would only be "cherry picking" if I selected the IOC and FIFA because I knew they would support the case I was trying to make.

To look at another example, some of those who run the UCI and Tour de France (the western world's biggest 'equipment intensive' sport and the world's biggest annual sporting event) are former champions, some are not.

Yes, Rogge and Coe were both top sportspeople and top administrators but not all champions are like them. There are lots of champions who were not great at running businesses, sports or doing anything else off the sportsfield. Elvstrom, for example, was an amazing sailor, but the classes he tried to create flopped. Personally, from experience at national level, I think a champion sailor can make a good administrator - but arguably, it's just as likely that some of the things that make a champion could make someone a bad administrator. There are lot of top administrators who are champions but that is possibly because they are high achievers who want to remain connected with their sports, not because their experience intrinsically makes them better than anyone else at their roles.

Sure a champion can have expert opinions about the equipment they use, but what an expert wants can be very different from what the grass roots sailors want. By the way, there's Olympic gold medallists and PWA champs who are involved in the class I'm currently racing so I've got no reason to be biased in this matter. I think Paducah's basic point is a good one - there are former champions on each side of the debate, therefore the fact that a gold medallist favours a class is not all that relevant. To be honest I can't see why the Glide would be good enough to make it worthwhile for all the nations of the world to burn their RSXs and switch to a different style of hybrid nor do I think the LT, RB or slalom are currently suited to the Games.

I tend to think that some of the worst decisions about Olympic class selection has been due to what appears to be a frantic effort to look "cool" at the expense of a logical analysis of the sport's direction and the factors that drive sports participation, but I'd be interested in hearing your point of view.

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Chris249 said..
I tend to think that some of the worst decisions about Olympic class selection has been due to what appears to be a frantic effort to look "cool" at the expense of a logical analysis of the sport's direction and the factors that drive sports participation, but I'd be interested in hearing your point of view.

Well since you asked, I think some of the worst decisions that have been made with Olympic classes have been keeping them past their use-by dates. The Star and FD should have gone long before they got dropped, and the Finn should really have been replaced by the Laser for the 1984 Olympics rather than the Laser getting in for 1996 and the Finn hanging around until 2020.The 470 is well past its time and it's still in the Olympics.

The Laser deserves to be there just because of its worldwide popularity, even though it is now a bit long in the tooth, but historically classes that have little grass roots popularity have been kept in, primarily because of the ludicrous politics and voting structure of the decision making process. It really has been a travesty for the past 50 years.

So my criticism is really that the Olympic Classes have stuck with the status quo too often and not made decisions that would have advanced the sport further. I think it is probably time to make some decisions in the windsurfing event that are forward looking rather than based on designs that are just more of the same and do nothing to advance the sport or its image in the eyes of the general population.

Maybe we are looking at the wrong age group of females?

www.windfoilzone.com/post/lets-meet-danicka-hawaiian-young-gun

Reminds me that Daniela Moroz is 4 times world champ in kiting at 18.

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AUS817 said..

Chris249 said..

Chris, since you don't believe the Glide, Windsurfer LT, RB or slalom are currently suited to the Games and given the RS:X is a Hybrid very similar concept to the Glide it's out too, so I'm curious what you think should be the Olympic board? You've pretty much ruled out the greater majority of the racing classes?

I don't believe the putting down of other classes is what we should be doing to promote our sport, I'd much prefer everyone putting forward the positives for each class and ultimately the sport of windsurfing will benefit if we are all united.

While we only get one class to represent our sport at the Olympics that doesn't mean all classes won't be sailed and respected at an international level. I have equal respect for anyone that wins a world title event in any of our sports classes or disciplines. I've been fortunate enough to compete at a small number of these in various classes and I assure you the standard of sailing is high and the love of our sport is there regardless of the class.

Mate, we're both actually saying the same thing - we are both trying to be positive about classes, when other people are being negative. You are dead right - we should be trying to push the positives and promote the sport.

I have absolutely NOT said that the Glide, Raceboard or RSX aren't suited to the Games. I am NOT putting those classes down - if you read my posts you'll see I defended slalom, RB etc, and I also defended RB and RSX with success inside the IWA a few years back. I was into RB and slalom almost from the time they were invented and have done OK in those classes (2nd and 3rd nationally, =17 in the world, etc) so I have absolutely zero reason to be biased against them. Let's make it clear - I'm against anyone putting down ANY class.

Basically the point is that the issue is extremely complicated and discussion and selection should go deeper than saying "this class is cool and new, therefore it should be in the Games" or "faster boards are better" or "Olympic sailors prefer this board". There are many other factors, including the criteria laid out by the IOC's OPC, the position of national authorities, the wind conditions at Olympic circuit sites, the realities of media ratings, the cost factor, etc.

If I had my dream I'd probably see a "Formula 42" style setup, which could allow for sailing in all winds and several disciplines and to really show off the incredible versatility of windsurfing, which is (IMHO) perhaps the greatest thing about our sport. But it won't get off the ground while some people (not you!) keep on dissing classes and promoting a narrow, one-eyed view of this incredible sport.

RB is suited to the Games in some ways but (IMHO) under the current rules it would cop too much flak from one-eyed zealots and would be too costly. The LT is not a serious option, the class didn't mean it to be, and I don't want it to be. The Glide is suited to the Games in some ways but I still haven't seen a reason why going from one hybrid (the RSX) to another (the Glide) would be worth the cost involved. I can't see how slalom can be an Olympic class because it can't be sailed on too many days and in too many places - just last week the whole Youth and Junior World Championship had to be canned due to lack of wind.

Foiling could work, and it was interesting to see that vids showed people foiling around at the start line when the Youth and Juniors were unable to race at the Slalom Worlds, but many of its fans just throw around slogans and throw abuse at other classes and that makes it hard to discuss it objectively. Getting selected could also hurt foil racing's grass roots popularity, just as it stuffed up earlier Olympic classes.

Personally I don't like the RSX board. It basically failed to do what its fans said it would do, as so many other proposed Olympic classes have done. The same sort of simplistic thinking that led to the selection of the RSX is now being used to promote foiling. But arguably, it has the numbers, the established feeder fleet and good international spread. I don't know why World Sailing voted against it but I suspect they are driven by an irrational dread of looking uncool. At the moment, the RSX may still be the best option. There seems to be no evidence at all that keeping the RSX will hurt windsurfing as a whole, as some claim.

To me it seems like a choice between RSX and foil, but the foiling fans could probably present their case better. The big issue isn't so much the Olympic class, but the attitude of the people who sling **** at classes they don't personally like. It's all windsurfing, it's all great.

Some people just have Pure Hate for the Wally !

"The Glide is an affordable ONE DESIGN CONCEPT designed for learn to windsurf / learn to race. The board is designed to sail easily & safely in a wide range of conditions from a wide range of locations. It ticks all the boxes. Foiling is a really fun, but currently for racing is an arms race - cheque book racing, which is not some thing we wish to be involved with currently. Been there with pro racing circuit before, not sustainable or win-able unless you have deep pockets & no other commitments."

Bruce Kendall.

www.facebook.com/pages/category/Sports---Recreation/GLIDE-Windsurf-344935669669011/




www.facebook.com/344935669669011/videos/1148480351985924/

"Mast track operation with dagger board head.
This video shows how depressing the dagger board head, you can adjust the mast track at the same time. This means when you kick up the dagger board, you don't have to take another step to depress the mast track pedal. Not a new idea, but many modern boards failed to include this feature... the video goes with the other photos sent with the World Sailing application to Tender for the 2024 Olympic equipment."

I think the Glide will become popular in Asia where the RSX has apparently failed to fill the "Mistral One Design void". This is going to be good for windsurfing.

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windsufering said..
Bic techno class won't be happy !

Because ?????????

Its hard to believe that they could compete with Bic on price which might be important alongside the widespread popularity of the Bics.

IMO the glide will kill two classes rsx and techno . The foils some people say kites do it better.
So the winner is ?

The bic techn is a huge class and I can't see them letting the glide as a Olympic board
the Gliide claims to do every thing from 0 to 30 knots in the surf supping the lot

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windsufering said..
Some people just have Pure Hate for the Wally !

Your positive attitude towards all windsurfing classes and optimism in general is contagious...
Keep up the good work

Surprised you figured out how to use internet and login in a forum!

Could this be what windsurfing looks like in 2024 at Paris?