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Old sails vs new-ish sails = less power?

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Created by nosinkanow > 9 months ago, 1 Mar 2010
Mrgob
116 posts
15 Mar 2010 9:47PM
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To Windsuffering:

a) 99.9% of windsurfers I've ever come across or sailed with in the last several years use loose leeched sails.

b) The majority of them, on modern slalom boards regularly exceed 30 knots as a matter of course.

c) I've never met or heard of anybody (except yourself) who would claim to outdrag them using a tight leeched sail on a good windy blasting day.

If all of us, including the sail makers are getting it wrong we'd be grateful if you would please explain how and why. Thank you in advance.

Mrgob
116 posts
15 Mar 2010 11:16PM
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P.S. Rightly or wrongly, my understanding is that the loose leech exhausts the air flow backwards and upwards from the main body of the sail, to allow that part to develope more thrust. If it didn,t do so the sail would 'lock up', a feeling only too well known to those of us who were ever caught out by a sudden blow in old sail days, and had to fight our way back in.

In other words, a tight leech sail is akin to shoving half a potato up the exhaust pipe of my Bonneville. It wouldn,t break any speed limits then!

Squid Lips
WA, 708 posts
16 Mar 2010 8:30PM
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mkseven said...
... it turns into a ka gangbang in every thread.



big LOL

mkseven said...
I initially thought it was a local thing & thought great support aussie product but ben doesnt have the same fanbase yet is arguably putting out better albeit more expensive product.


Just the aussie way I think, to support the underdog.

oldee
VIC, 14 posts
16 Mar 2010 11:57PM
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Every dog has his day etc
So KA steps up to the plate and has a go.. good.

Barry Spanier discovered the RAF sail serendipitously, now a bit of science might help.
But he says "Marketing is what debases it all" in his interesting historical speedsailing stuff:
http://www.mauisails.com/barry_corner.php
Fins as thin as paper, lines a meter long, slotted sails like the America Cup carbon, all been done before..

windsufering
VIC, 1124 posts
17 Mar 2010 11:34AM
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i understand now a sail is like a combustion Engine
learn to sail up wind and get some sunshine you need it !

Mrgob
116 posts
17 Mar 2010 9:21AM
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And you mate!

wildblue
3 posts
24 Mar 2010 2:35AM
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Modern sails generate less drag, so they have a better lift/drag ratio. This seems to benefit modern board designs that plane more efficiently. Helps with comfort and ergonomics too. The modern concept is "twist flow". The sail leech isn't dumping wind, it's feathering at the top sections, which does good things for aerodynamics. A ws sail's closest aeronautical equivalent is a propeller blade, they have major twist. The twisted sections supposedly still make useful lift, but don't overpower the rider and keeps the COE low. Used to sail a 1997 NP V8. Lots of low end range, but it was a crazy high COE catapult machine downhauled and overpowered.

pweedas
WA, 4642 posts
24 Mar 2010 12:03PM
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wildblue said...

A ws sail's closest aeronautical equivalent is a propeller blade, they have major twist. The twisted sections supposedly still make useful lift, but don't overpower the rider and keeps the COE low. Used to sail a 1997 NP V8. Lots of low end range, but it was a crazy high COE catapult machine downhauled and overpowered.


Propeller blades are not a good comparison to sails. The large change in blade angle on a prop is due to the fact that it goes around in circles, thus the blade velocity at the prop tip is typically 4 to 5 times faster than at the prop hub.
Thus there is the absolute necessity to reduce the blade angle all the way along the blade to keep the angle of attack constant all the way along it.

Coming back to sails then, the effect of having the top of the sail "spill wind" in the gusts is not just to reduce the force on the sail but it also acts to keep the centre of pressure (or centre of effort in the case of a sail) in the same place.
There is another thread going on this subject. www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=63881
A sail design which spills wind is tending more along the lines of a reflex aerofoil and thus by having the trailing edge spill air in gusts, it has the effect of counteracting the movement of the centre of lift which a wind gust would normally produce.
If they get things just right and if it is rigged exactly right, the two should negate each other resulting in the centre of effort remaining in the same place in a wide range of wind conditions. Thus the sail feels very "soft" or comfortable because you don't suddenly have huge forces on your back hand or front hand.

A sail is just a wing mounted vertically. All the same principles apply to sails as low speed aeroplane wings.
There is heaps of info on the web on plane wings and the various types of aerofoils if you want to look it up.
You could start with a quick look at wikipedia on airfoils en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airfoil
The old sails with the cams and battens are closely related to the "cambered" aerofoils.
The new sails with the loose trailing edge which spills the gusts are tending more towards the "reflex" aerofoils which are used in the flying wing design aircraft.
Have a look at reflex aerofoils en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camber_(aerodynamics)
No point in reproducing it all here. If you're interested, have look. ( Not now! This is WORK time. Get back to work! )

sboardcrazy
NSW, 8019 posts
24 Mar 2010 3:30PM
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Pweedas said
( Not now! This is WORK time. Get back to work! )

racerX
459 posts
24 Mar 2010 7:23PM
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I thought part of the reason for the twist off of the sail, (when under constant load) is to allow it to maintain a constant angle of attack. The wind 4 metre from the ground will be travelling faster than the wind 1 metre from ground. Thus the apparent wind vector will be different. This is certainly true for big sail boats, perhaps not so much for wave sails. I thought the other reason and most important was so that when a gust hits and the masts bends the loose leech allows the main panels lower down to keep there existing shape, so the COE stays were it is. If it was tight the bend would distort the main panels of the sail, and the COE would move abrumptly making life fun...

Just a thought.

Mrgob
116 posts
25 Mar 2010 2:08AM
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Coming back to old v. new sails, I've been comparing them on my Kona.

To keep it short, the biggest difference I found was in the 7.0 metre size range. I sometimes use a modern Tushingham 7.0 Thunderbird on the Kona so I compared it with an early nineties well used rig that I dragged back out of the loft. (It did much cruising service on a Bic Bamba.)

It was a cheepo Pacific 7.2 twin cam sail and old epoxy mast which, despite Pacific sails poor reputation had a surprisingly effective range of performance at the time.

In planing conditions, the modern 7.0, set with proper downhaul, was light fast and comfy, but lacked the long board locked down feeling. The Pacific was just as fast but did have that weightier 'guided missile' type feeling. (I like that.) Neither had any real problems.

In sub planing conditions however, the Pacific was the hands down winner! Better upwind with dagger down, more glide (great feeling), and fully up to the job.

I was pleased enough to rig it on a better C 45 mast and it felt even better. In short, for future cruising in average winds with distance to cover, it's going back into service.Thanks C 249 for reminding me of what I'd forgotten!



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"Old sails vs new-ish sails = less power?" started by nosinkanow