By the way Mark, I said you'd be back to this thread one day. You aren't a quitter.
On page 13 I predicted you would be back posting on page 17!.
Select to expand quoteSparky said..
Is he also MW sails?
Nope. Different guys but same background/personality. I'm not a professional in that area but the common personality traits are interesting.
NelsonFoils doesn't seem related - contributes in a more civil manner from what I gather. Is interested in new ideas and got caught up in the MW drama as collateral damage. Likes the idea of a wing sail but didn't realize who was driving that bus.
I thought it was funny that he was bagging experts, like Professor Mark Drela who I'd quoted earlier, and then ranting on about how a computer programme would show why a wingsail was better. The irony is that the very computer programme he was talking about was initially developed by the same Prof Drela that Stepan was insulting, but Stupan obviously didn't realise it.
There's something very strange about a lot of wingsail creators. They insist that just about every other sailor and rig designer is a moron for not realising that wingsails are the way to go and they use very superficial knowledge about rig design. They tend to be pretty poor at sailing, which seems to be related to their insistence that some sort of supposed aerodynamic "perfection" is more important than real-world factors. I guess the fact that they don't learn from experts is also part of the reason they are bad sailors.
Whatever they do, the wingsail weirdos tend to fall into the same pattern - they do a website insulting lots of people and ignoring the lessons of a century of earlier wingsails, they make lots of big claims, and then they adamantly refuse to do anything as simple as turning up to a race to show how fast their rig is. They must surely know, deep down, that their rigs don't work as they claim but somehow they turn that into anger directed at everyone else.
The guys who design wingsails that work (and in some situations obviously they work beautifully) are very different - much more open and practical and much more interested in praising conventional rigs and earlier wingsails than in abusing them.
Summer is soon over up here, not seen much more claim with GPS reading and head to head comparison with thin sails. I really wish we would, so this debate can be sorted.
In the OBX video, it looks like the rider is opening as I do with my freerace, but it might be different feelings.
Laurent FRA-66 was racing in Luderitz and is one of the (very) good speed sailor in France, did not have enough time/wind with the MW sail to really give his opinion.
I like the idea that rocket science is easy which belies the adage! Its rocket engineering that is tough and I would imagine that any system that has to deal with turbulence is incredibly difficult... including sail design.
Well boys n girls theres something for everyone!!! The sayers the nayers n even the players. Check the vid n watch this debate rage again....
Select to expand quoteplettil said..
Found this one :
As they say: "Pictures cost thousands of words."
I think the opponents of MW sails on this forum are these slow windsurfers on this video. Or they have had experiences similar to these slow windsurfers on the video.
It has been said too much on this thread. I ignore the words and conclude on the facts:
It has been 3 years of MW Sails:
1. Not a single negative review from MW customers.
2. No videos or reports yet to suspect a traditional sail to be faster. Considering strong opposition I understand that it is very difficult if not impossible to make a realistic fake video of MW loosing a race to others.
3. MW Sails rider is overweight like me and average Joe skilled like me and goes faster compare to more skilled riders.
The only argument I may consider from MW opponents is: "Nobody won an official race with MW sails yet?" My understanding is that average Joe windsurfers like MW or I are not fit to race more fit and aggressive opponents that we can see here. I want to believe that the best sailors are sponsored by manufacturers. So, they would have to decline the sponsorship in order to use MW, despite possible advantages. I think these expert pros will not comment on MW publicly because of obligations to their sponsors.
However, from my personal interests of an average windsurfer, I would be completely satisfied if MW makes me the fastest on my spot. I am not one of these sailors with multiple gears standing on the beach and never go surfing. I am particularly interested in surfing like on MW video when I go faster compare to others. I do not care if my sail is pained like NP or like Russian flag.
IMO the MW sail would rock as a hydrofoil sail. good locked in shape and a luff tube which doesn't fill with god knows how many kilo's of water.
Xyz, the MW rider doesnt appear to be 'overweight'. Thats a thin lookin forearm if you ask me. Not belonging to an overweight critter. Im 105kg. Yes he does accelerate n play with the other sailors. But their sails look rather small. I can achieve this against my local 'CRUISEY' sailors on my RB. By the way, he seems to know the other sailors. Also MW seems to do a lot more pumping than usual to get planing. Im all for the air chamber. Rig would never sink. Awesome. Lets see a real vid showing comparable sized gear n riders. Or better yet, send a few MWs Down Under. Let some of our crew demo for you. If it IS an advancement in rigs, lets have it. Action speaks louder than words my friend.
Select to expand quoteXYZ said.. 1. Not a single negative review from MW customers.
2. No videos or reports yet to suspect a traditional sail to be faster. Considering strong opposition I understand that it is very difficult if not impossible to make a realistic fake video of MW loosing a race to others.
3. MW Sails rider is overweight like me and average Joe skilled like me and goes faster compare to more skilled riders.
1.Not a single sail provided to a person of professional ability to try? Seems its all 'normal' folks and not many of them
Surely somewhere nearby there is a guy who used to be a pro but now has no sponsorship deal and can reallllly test an MW? Where is the review from that guy?
2. No videos or reports to suggest a MW to be faster either. AGAIN I ask where is the quantitative data with side by side comparisons?
Where is the evidence of a major race over a couple of days where everyone else used a 5m one day and 8m the next but the guys on MW used 7m for the whole thing and were in control and won?
So far it is a handful of people estimating it has this claimed massive wind range...
3.again - where is the quantitative data - not the salesman speak combined with gut feelings of intermediate to pretty good sailors (and not many of them...)? where is the measured numbers where everyone is on 6m on 30kn on the speed course but the MW 7m is stable and in the top say 20% of runs that day?
The WA guys here set a challenge for him to send one over here they were going to pay and use it for a season of racing. What happened MWXYZ?
Select to expand quoteXYZ said..plettil said..
Found this one :
As they say: "Pictures cost thousands of words."
I think the opponents of MW sails on this forum are these slow windsurfers on this video. Or they have had experiences similar to these slow windsurfers on the video.
It has been said too much on this thread. I ignore the words and conclude on the facts:
It has been 3 years of MW Sails:
1. Not a single negative review from MW customers.
2. No videos or reports yet to suspect a traditional sail to be faster. Considering strong opposition I understand that it is very difficult if not impossible to make a realistic fake video of MW loosing a race to others.
3. MW Sails rider is overweight like me and average Joe skilled like me and goes faster compare to more skilled riders.
The only argument I may consider from MW opponents is: "Nobody won an official race with MW sails yet?" My understanding is that average Joe windsurfers like MW or I are not fit to race more fit and aggressive opponents that we can see here. I want to believe that the best sailors are sponsored by manufacturers. So, they would have to decline the sponsorship in order to use MW, despite possible advantages. I think these expert pros will not comment on MW publicly because of obligations to their sponsors.
However, from my personal interests of an average windsurfer, I would be completely satisfied if MW makes me the fastest on my spot. I am not one of these sailors with multiple gears standing on the beach and never go surfing. I am particularly interested in surfing like on MW video when I go faster compare to others. I do not care if my sail is pained like NP or like Russian flag.
You are an IDIOT.
That said, the MW sails are looking good in this video & it looks like he's having fun blasting past all those guys who are all either underpowered or underskilled - even compared to the MW guy...
Select to expand quoteelmo said..
IMO the MW sail would rock as a hydrofoil sail. good locked in shape and a luff tube which doesn't fill with god knows how many kilo's of water.
Some guy in the States already wasted his money trying it. Unloaded it pretty quickly at half price. A 2 cam sail locks in well enough (if you want to go that way) and since we are all using smaller sails, nobody I know of is struggling to uphaul standing on a 130-150 l foil board.
btw, that guy in video is THAT GUY - we've all run across one. The clueless one who, when you are out farting around on freeride or wave gear decides to sail down on top of you and shadow your sail. Hey, if you want to show us how fast you are, pass underneath.
Select to expand quoteXYZ said..plettil said..
Found this one :
As they say: "Pictures cost thousands of words."
I think the opponents of MW sails on this forum are these slow windsurfers on this video. Or they have had experiences similar to these slow windsurfers on the video.
It has been said too much on this thread. I ignore the words and conclude on the facts:
It has been 3 years of MW Sails:
1. Not a single negative review from MW customers.
2. No videos or reports yet to suspect a traditional sail to be faster. Considering strong opposition I understand that it is very difficult if not impossible to make a realistic fake video of MW loosing a race to others.
3. MW Sails rider is overweight like me and average Joe skilled like me and goes faster compare to more skilled riders.
The only argument I may consider from MW opponents is: "Nobody won an official race with MW sails yet?" My understanding is that average Joe windsurfers like MW or I are not fit to race more fit and aggressive opponents that we can see here. I want to believe that the best sailors are sponsored by manufacturers. So, they would have to decline the sponsorship in order to use MW, despite possible advantages. I think these expert pros will not comment on MW publicly because of obligations to their sponsors.
However, from my personal interests of an average windsurfer, I would be completely satisfied if MW makes me the fastest on my spot. I am not one of these sailors with multiple gears standing on the beach and never go surfing. I am particularly interested in surfing like on MW video when I go faster compare to others. I do not care if my sail is pained like NP or like Russian flag.
Why do you sometimes pretend that you are not the guy who is trying to sell Fly Fins?
Why do you try to mislead people?
Why do you claim an aerodynamics programme based on Mark Drela's Xfoil can prove a wingsail is better, when Prof Drela himself says that they are often less efficient?
If you are not a very good windsurfer after all the years you've been windsurfing, you obviously know very little about how to windsurf efficiently, so why should we listen to you?
And to ask the question again - why do you lie? Do you feel happy being known as a liar? Does it help you sell your olde-world foils?
Select to expand quoteePaducah said..
btw, that guy in video is THAT GUY - we've all run across one. The clueless one who, when you are out farting around on freeride or wave gear decides to sail down on top of you and shadow your sail. Hey, if you want to show us how fast you are, pass underneath.
Yep, I noticed that; he seems to wait, get a gust and then bear down onto guys, including guys who seem to be underpowered.
It's also interesting that a lot of the time, he's no faster. And of course the reason only a proven liar like XYZ would be convinced about the video is that he could have taken two hours of vid and only used his best runs. Most sailors, even the average guy with average gear, could probably film a "highlights" vid like that, just by selecting the bits they edit out.
Select to expand quoteXYZ said..plettil said..
Found this one :
As they say: "Pictures cost thousands of words."
I think the opponents of MW sails on this forum are these slow windsurfers on this video. Or they have had experiences similar to these slow windsurfers on the video.
It has been said too much on this thread. I ignore the words and conclude on the facts:
It has been 3 years of MW Sails:
1. Not a single negative review from MW customers.
2. No videos or reports yet to suspect a traditional sail to be faster. Considering strong opposition I understand that it is very difficult if not impossible to make a realistic fake video of MW loosing a race to others.
3. MW Sails rider is overweight like me and average Joe skilled like me and goes faster compare to more skilled riders.
The only argument I may consider from MW opponents is: "Nobody won an official race with MW sails yet?" My understanding is that average Joe windsurfers like MW or I are not fit to race more fit and aggressive opponents that we can see here. I want to believe that the best sailors are sponsored by manufacturers. So, they would have to decline the sponsorship in order to use MW, despite possible advantages. I think these expert pros will not comment on MW publicly because of obligations to their sponsors.
However, from my personal interests of an average windsurfer, I would be completely satisfied if MW makes me the fastest on my spot. I am not one of these sailors with multiple gears standing on the beach and never go surfing. I am particularly interested in surfing like on MW video when I go faster compare to others. I do not care if my sail is pained like NP or like Russian flag.
Oh my! This is the gift that keeps giving. A ridiculous video that shows a freeride board occasionally somewhat overcoming another freeride board and we have demonstrated that MW sails make overweight and average sailors go faster than skilled (and skinny?) ones. What speeds is the video showing? Low twenties? 
Truly entertaining! Trump, twitter, and the Russian bots have really opened up a new era!
Thank you for commenting on 100% MWSails customer satisfaction. We have received 8 comments and all 8 of the comments are negative. Please understand that you need to be the one who actually used MWSails in order to be considered as a valid comment on MW performance. If you know some people in the States with negative experience on MW Sails you would have already told them about this discussion and they would have commented already. Because nobody is commenting I form an opinion that all the negative comments here are not result of MW Sails use. Sometimes, you asked for a free sail to test in exchange for a positive review and you did not get a free sail. You feel ignored because you think you should be getting free sails for review but the manufacturers are ignoring you. I have seen comments here with demands to MW Sails to ship free sail for testing. Considering the cost of sail as low as $800 I do not think it is the money that makes you permanently negative towards to MWSails. I think you do not like MW Sails because MW Sails does not know how good you are in windsurfing. My suggestion is instead of talking how good you are just post a video showing that you can windsurf.
Select to expand quoteXYZ said..
Thank you for commenting on 100% MWSails customer satisfaction. We have received 8 comments and all 8 of the comments are negative. Please understand that you need to be the one who actually used MWSails in order to be considered as a valid comment on MW performance. If you know some people in the States with negative experience on MW Sails you would have already told them about this discussion and they would have commented already. Because nobody is commenting I form an opinion that all the negative comments here are not result of MW Sails use. Sometimes, you asked for a free sail to test in exchange for a positive review and you did not get a free sail. You feel ignored because you think you should be getting free sails for review but the manufacturers are ignoring you. I have seen comments here with demands to MW Sails to ship free sail for testing. Considering the cost of sail as low as $800 I do not think it is the money that makes you permanently negative towards to MWSails. I think you do not like MW Sails because MW Sails does not know how good you are in windsurfing. My suggestion is instead of talking how good you are just post a video showing that you can windsurf.
Nobody asked for a free sail. And certainly no one said theyd give a positive review for a free sail.
No one tried to talk themselves up either.
youre a different page from the same book as mw sails, xyz.
hey XYZ: this is not about how much i suck at windsurfing - which i do
this is more about the "newspeak" coming from you and MW sails
personally i do not need to see a professional sailor on your sail(s) to be convinced
some of those dudes can sail ANYTHING
how about a respected sail designer like Barry Spanier, Bruce Peterson, David Ezzy, Monty Spindler, Ben Severne (too many to list) ??
if one of those designers confirmed this design had merit and why
you get my vote
up to now - you are losing us ALL - ONCE AGAIN
bonne chance mon ami !!
I'm disappointed this thread has gone quiet, so I found these interesting videos that may help stir the pot! :)
Select to expand quoteJonesySail said..
I'm disappointed this thread has gone quiet, so I found these interesting videos that may help stir the pot! :)
There is also one of Erik Beale smoking on a wing sail back in the day, not sure if this link will work
www.facebook.com/107073829315646/posts/1961437967212547/
Lake Geneva, what a beautiful place!
The IWS yacht has all the usual production wingsail trademarks - it generates publicity, it involves what appear to be bogus trials*, it makes big claims, and the backers stay about a million miles away from actually turning up to an event to prove the claims.
The IWS guy has done OK in some boats (and poorly in others) and lives in an area with lots of other boats. The sail has been around for years now. Why not just get out onto the racetrack and prove the claims? The vid shows the sort of overblown hype that is endemic with these rigs, like the bit where the guy sits on the stern and the caption is "user friendly". C'mon, it's light winds and flat water - you could do that with any rig. The clip shows nothing, so why pretend it does?
Why keep on assuming that conventional sails are ** devices created by idiots? Why not respect conventional rigs enough to assume that they do their job damn well and that they are designed the way they are because that's the best way to do them?
The point is not to be critical about the wingsail, but to be positive about the conventional sails. The conventional sails are not bad designs and if people are going to imply they are inferior, they should simply prove it rather than trying to win the Talk It Up Cup.
* They reckon they trialled it against a Laser. The pic on the website shows the 8m2 wingsail alongside a standard Laser with 7m sail that is being sailed very poorly - not enough vang, not enough cunno, not enough mainsheet, way too much heel, and an ageing sail. So the Laser they used as a yardstick would have been several minutes slower than a well-sailed Laser. The wingsail was newer and bigger and the boat was being sailed flatter, which is critical in a Laser. In short, the available information shows that the test was completely unfair.
Ok so page 18 and I thought this would be a good time to join in . inflatedwingsails.com/en/category/video-en/ This thing makes me laugh and I would love to have one of these for a sail it wobbles around all over the place imagine the looks as you rocked up to the beach with one of these. As for the laser vs laser trial watch closely and you will see the winged sail can't point as well as the traditional sail so game over in my opinion. Even after 18 pages of reality I still would give a MW sail a go if it was rigged and ready for a trial I can't help but think it would behave in a similar way to a comparitive traditional sail of the same size 
