Nebian,
Thanks for that.
Although the Carbon was a success in it's own right it didn't really come up to scratch as Spine material, not even the 2 thicknesses, remember I used 1 mast base of lineal, helical mixed and 1 of Spiral wound inserted inside. This gave the Spine the required strength but didn't stop the Twisting and the mast laid over quite badly along with the front wheel.
What you are seeing is a completely new front end replacing the Carbon Fiber section. I remove the Steering Head from the old spine, upgraded it and welded it into the new 1 7/8" Od x 3 mm Tube. The Mast Step is therefore Metal, ex 2.5" 3.6mm tube which allowed for the cutting and wrapping. The new front section just slipped into the "T" and is Pined and Clamped in place. There was some discrepancy between the 2 tubes which, as luck would have it was able to be sleeved down to suit both sections. Damn! I love it when a plan comes together!
As for the Rest it is just as Sc Mk1 had it.
The Cat lives again Mark 2 (I wonder how many times I can rebuild it? Mk9, perhaps??) Least ways I think it does, I walked away from it when I took the pic's and it tried to put itself away in the shed again[}:)][}:)]
Can't wait for the wind to pick up again
Ron
Ok. Now I am getting confused..
Contact Patch? Yep I got that. Without a contact patch we are either air born or Wheel Standing. Right??
Now Lead and Trail. The effects of either on Caster? and on general steering characteristics?? Yeah! yeah!Paul I know you've already mentioned it but I can not get it quite straight.. Ok! So I Bloody Forgot.. At my age that is my privileged.. Now tell me again and don't be so insulting!! If it doesn't make to drastic a difference I would like the OR to tend to self center.
Oh! Yeah! I took SC up to Pegg's Beach today. Damn! Just how many Horse Power is coming against the Spine?? I used a 5/16" Mild Steel bolt in the Steel/Carbon Fiber Frame and it was ok. But I was getting a nice little wriggle on and very little Layover then suddenly I had Horizontal Layover. The Pipe sheared the bolt off clean on both sides of the spine. This Time I have Upped the Shear Pins to 3/8" x 2 there of.[}:)]
Ron
This always makes my head hurt. Partly because flop-over steering just works so differently from other styles; so maybe things we learn from cars and bicycles are just wrong.
Seems to me caster, the angle of the steering pivot, affects trail more than the other way round. You can change the trail without changing the caster (Just flip the fork around on a bicycle), but if you change the caster it will change the trail. On 'C' style fronts like original PM you have caster like a car or go kart being the only thing to adjust; trail will just happen if you tip the top of the steering pivot back (whether you should or not is hotly debated). On bicycle or flop-over style pretty much anything you change on the forks changes the trail and the handling. If you forget about side loads (which a lot of folks here say is a really bad idea) what trail/caster does is cause self centering, because turning the wheel raises the chassis and gravity wants it to be as low as possible.
A weird thing about 'C'style "hook" fronts is that turning right and turning left have slightly different geometry (unless you dish the wheel and put the pivot right on the centerline of the wheel/tire) turning one way moves the wheel forward; turning the other moves it back. Peculiarer and peculiarer.
Yes and curiouser and curiouser also
The problem I have is rarely are conditions the same and rarely is just one thing changed as I dont get sailing often enough so mostly two or more things are different from last time out A lot of my experiments just go round in a circle
Good summing up there Blake again very helpful
Thanks Lads,
I took the Bit between my teeth and went for it. The Pic's are evidence.
I like the alignment of the rear wheels I rolled the chassis up the drive to check out the wheel tracking at one point OR decided to go back to the other end It is only a very gentle slope, probably 150mm over 25mtrs. So I decided to see if it would do the same thing forward. Yep equally as easily it just rolled off on it's ownsome. "The Contact Patch" is at the trailing edge of the Contact area if the tire Giving a slight Lead.
One may say it is going to do well on the beach (Fingers X'ed).
Ok keep in mind, I have reinforced the Steering head with a 7/8" Solid rod.
Ron
Agreed, I think the yacht looks great. If I wasn't currently playing around with the mini's I'd seriously consider a class 5 size machine.
Therefore I must ask you to keep inspiration material to a minimum
How I hate Public Hollidays!!
They just get in the way of my days in the Pristine Environmental Mess I lovingly call "My Shed".. It seems, this last month has been an endless string of Construction breakdowns.
Every time I need to get some metal or bolts etc, has been a LOOOONNNNGGGG WEEKEND! Christmas, New Year!! What is that all about???? Just stuff for the Working Classes.. Bahh! 
Us retired folk need stuff when we need stuff and the Bleedin' Workers are all off somewhere on Hollidays. Bahh!. Now I can't find my Friendly Machinest and I have a front axle to be made. Damn!!
Ron[}:)]
Bloody Smart Ass YANK!
Yep. Yer Right Yer Know! I will Blame it on the CFMEU. I just love those Mongrels.
Ron
HALP! Steering. Sensitivity. Heavy Steering etc.
The image is about the action of the wheel, for those that know my dilemma.
Because the Steering Tiller action is is at 30degrees to perpendicular/vertical it is a very hard ask for an horizontal action to be converted to a 60degree rotary action. Given what I have tested on the Razor I believe it will be so sensitive though the first 30 degrees of the steering with this flop over type steering. How do I damp this and without interfering with the amount of turn of the machine
I noticed the same thing with SC's steering. You have only the wriggle your butt in settling and the Cat does some serious zigzagging. I think this problem would apply with either the Solid Rod Push Pull system of the Cable Pull Pull System. The only way I can see clear in this problem is to use a Quadrant on the Steering head and convert from horizontal to 60Deg' either by Pull Pull Cables and Block Sheaves or use something like a couple of Truck Speedo' Cables, which I fear would have a big problem with sand.
HALP!
Ron
OK Ron
Here are my thoughts Horizontal footbar action converted to 30 degree pivot on your front wheel is no problem many many yachts do this
Whether you use pull pull cables or a push pull rod system is your choice but you do not want any slack in the system either will work and work well
It now comes down to the geometry of your forks You say you have a bit of lead
[the tyre patch footprint is in front of the pivot line where it meets the ground]
I believe your steering will be twitchy like this [ oversteer]and you should have trail if anything not lead I measured my class5 the other day and it has 50mm of trail
and it is plenty twitchy enough for me My minis have a little trail with plastic bushes in the steering and are quite stable The class5 has ball bearings in the fork pivot and is very free I damp it by tightening the footbar pivot
Pushing the yacht up and down your driveway should give you some idea how it will steer and how stable it will be
Eyeballing your other yacht it looks as though it had lead as well
Hopefully some others will come in here with their thoughts as well
In the early days of the rollover we used a bellcrank on the Glen5R, until someone else came along with a straight pushrod with a winsurfer flex joint which worked at least as well, was cheaper, simpler and had not bits to get sandy coal dust into. Since then always used a pushrod. Personally I have never sailed a yacht which has cables which I liked. I did say personally!
Another case where you can "over theorise" methinks!
You can learn a lot from pushing the yacht around by the back of the seat. Push one way to steer left etc. Again personally I like the steering to be free, I guess there are people who would introduce stiffness in the steering of their car but....
That looks pretty good to me Ron. Make sure the pivot point connection to the fork is at the same height as the center of the wheel and parallel with the back of the wheel.
You only need 100mm leverage on the front wheel. We are not steering the Queen Mary.
Just tighten your pivot boltso it does not fall over when you lift the front of the yacht. This will also help strengthen you legs. Remember us oldies need regular exercise. 
Ok! Lads, there is a lot of good stuff here.
That pic' of the wheel, Posted - 02/01/2011 : 7:03 pm. Is pretty accurate the Lead would be around 40mm.
(That can be cured easily if Needs Must)
Though Schrodinger's Cat is a bit twitchy and as suggested does over steer a little really allows it to tuck in tight and along with hauling the Sheet in tight she will break out and side slide nicely, just don't scratch your butt until you have settled down. Dooode! Yu gotta Get Sideways to get straight. I must say here that the Maxxis has altered the grip characteristics
Having such a long spine as Occam's Razor has a bit of over steer may not be a bad thing. Twitchy, won't know that until I Fang her down the beach in a good wind and I will leave the butt scratching until I get the feel of her. Don't want the Razor coming about to cut my Throat
The Steering setup I recon I may well go with the Push, Pull Rod system and the characteristics will probably come down to a lot of movement of the peddle to move the steering a little, so long as it is moves the Front wheel to just short of horizontal.
Ron
I have tried the Push Pull in experimentation and can only get a little over 45deg with the Push and can drag the wheel further over in Pull.
What is the normal best layover with this Style Layover ?? I am thinking up other methods of controlling the steering head,
Ron
Ron,
your photos help me think about my last question on the class 5 design thread. Your set up, regardless of the trail, gives a lot of steering angle for the same amount of flopping compared with a set up that has forks parallel with the ground. How does that work out? Will we know soon?
Blake
Just checked out my class5 45 degrees total 22.5 degrees each way
I have never felt short of steering angle something usually starts sliding first
either front or back [on the beach]
The Promo steering has the 'fork' parallel to ground and spine with no lead or trail.
It also has pushrod with very little slop. This is similar to photo in "Plans or specs for OTT class 5 build by Clemco refering to Imac duo.
Like! I'm the expert If that is the case then the Blind are leading the blind, Blake.
It would seem to me that there is a lot of differences in the same steering set up depending on a gamut of differences, i.e. Fork length, Head Set angle, tires etc.
For instance the set up for the Cat is very much as that on the Razor but the Razor has a smaller diameter, fatter tire. Hence past 45deg' arc each way of center, steering is fairly easy then the steering starts to lift the chassis at the head set and becomes progressively harder to gain more arc... Mind you this is my take on that situation.
Blake. Have patients Lad, it will happen when it happens.
As for the Over-steer, that is great as I have become quite fond of breaking out and sliding side ways.
As for the OTT Steering I think someone is going to have to do an experiment. Count me out on that one.. I've spent enough money already..
After some deliberation I have decided to go with a Cable type steering via a Quadrant at the top of the Head Set, bringing the cables down to the chassis and through 2 deep groove Sheaves then back up to the Foot peddles.
I will post a couple of Pic's tomorrow.
Ron
Ron.
I think you are about to try something that the club88' use for steering
cheers
aus230
Dang! AUS 230,
That is exactly what I am going to fit. Great Stuff!
Have you had anything to do with this set up? I'd like to know a little about any bugs that may crop up.
Thanks for that pic'. Would you happen to have one that shows the system in Close Up??
Ron
Its not the type of setup I would use, but it certainly works well on the club88's. Maybe someone can give more info on how it came about, It seems to be only used on the club88's in WA(I will get a close up pic this weekend)
cheers
aus230
Well sensibly speaking, there are a few machines out there with Front ends that are detachable. Now some adventurous person owning one of theses may well like to construct a front end that will do the testing and perhaps publish a comparison between the types. That person just may will receive local accolades for their effort. Hmmmmm
There is nothing like full-scale testing. Actually riding the beast as it performs, will give more accurate info than a model as one feels the subtleties as they occur.
Ron
Well sensibly speaking, there are a few machines out there with Front ends that are detachable. Now some adventurous person owning one of theses may well like to construct a front end that will do the testing and perhaps publish a comparison between the types. That person just may will receive local accolades for their effort. Hmmmmm
There is nothing like full-scale testing. Actually riding the beast as it performs, will give more accurate info than a model as one feels the subtleties as they occur.
For starters from imagination and the drawings I would suggest that the lower drawing, Horizontal forks would have a lot less tendency to move the front end through a sideways arc, this in turn would have a lighter self centering action than the Up Angled forks. It also, would also allow the Front wheel to flop over further and more easily and perhaps be a little less sensitive to any steering misdeeds one may perform. I am not saying any of the above is absolute but it is what I perceive visually. I will stand correcting if the proof show otherwise.
Ron
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