Select to expand quotelydia said..samsturdy said..
Absolutely first class Lydia. I'm with Shaggy on the engineering and craftsmanship, they are a joy to behold. Don't you
think such labour intensive structures such as wooden boats retain the spirit of the craftsmen that build them ?.
This is pretty scary comment as it means some of my earlier timber boats have had the spirit of some very scary people!
Does that include you ???
So this is my third timber boat restoration and I recommend everyone do it at least once but like everything there are rules.
1. Pick the boat that is as close as possible to original condition and configuration.
The last thing you want is somebody's better idea.
With Defiance, I am sure the S&S office knew best.
2, The most expensive work will be repairing modifications (if you call them that) done after build.
With Defiance the biggest repairs which should not have been required was removing a poorly installed anchor well and dealing with the consequences such as rot in the stem because of it and the need to replace three layers of planking caused by the failure to properly repair a leaking skin fitting.
3. Do not update the boat to 2018 but keep it a close as possible to original save for modern sail handling gear and electronics but simple is always best.
With Defiance there is no attempt to change the interior layout or cockpit. (Although Phil tells me the v berth was added since new but from the workmanship I am pretty sure I know whose work it is.)
4, Deal with the big issues as soon a possible so cosmetic issues (which people always want to do first) are well last on the list.
With defiance it was deal with rot on the deck, worm in the rudder and skin fitting repairs so the boat was sound and could sit until the next stage.
5. A good restoration costs a great deal of money but a cheap renovation of an old boat is not a renovation at all.
6. Make it fun and rewarding, by doing the research and getting the history.
People are generally great in helping, (special mention to Phil) as over time, for instance I have tracked down the original ad placed by Doug Booker (the builder) seeking a contract for a second build.
The motor sailer shown above was brought half sunk with no knowledge of the history but turned out to be very significant boat with great history and on hearing of the restoration the son of the original owner send me pics of the launch day in 1966 which had been displayed at his father's recent funeral service.
In the case of Defiance, if no one moved it was to cut up and dumped at the end of the week I intervened otherwise it was lost forever.
My weakness!
7. You find good candidates for restoration in unlikely places.
I first saw the Motorsailer up a creek north of Bribie island and thought at the time, WTF is that doing there.
About a year later broker I keep in contact with called saying I might have something with me not knowing it was the same boat.
I had seen Defiance in the storage yard but heard of the redevelopment of it,so tracked down the owner,now in London!
So this not the complete list but just a few thoughts.
Cheers
Select to expand quotesamsturdy said..lydia said..samsturdy said..
Absolutely first class Lydia. I'm with Shaggy on the engineering and craftsmanship, they are a joy to behold. Don't you
think such labour intensive structures such as wooden boats retain the spirit of the craftsmen that build them ?.
This is pretty scary comment as it means some of my earlier timber boats have had the spirit of some very scary people!
Does that include you ???
Sam, I cruise the very south of Tasmania when I am not working, I enjoy doing restorations of old timber boats, so that is a good start!
On a different note I was talking to Shaggy this morning about barographs.
Here a big front on the South Coast about 5 years ago. (ignore temp)
Select to expand quotelydia said..Ramona said..
Putting the V drive back in?
R, no v drive, it was a major decision as Vetus make a good V gear box but with the small size of new engines decision was made to fit a straight gear box and a new 27hp Vetus.
We will lose a little cabin space and the engine box will be the stairs so not losing that much usable space either but the simplicity was the key point.
Rough calculations show we will move the fuel tank and batteries (currently under a bunk) to the centre line aft of the new engine. so trim should be very close.
And I would rather have those items on the centre line.
The 27hp Vetus is lighter than the 20hp Lister which came out.
This has been the biggest lost cost on the job so far as I was pretty sure I could sort out the Lister, but at some time probarly to stop an overheat problem someone removed the heat exchanger core and was running raw water through both sides of the cooling system.
The boat then sat on the hard for 9 years without the system drained.
Damage to the cooling galleries would always be unknown and the water pumps needed complete replacement.
I could not have known this at the start but that is the risk you take.
Things you find out as you goSelect to expand quote
Mate with the alloy Cole 42 just rebuilt his V drive. The bloke in West Sydney that made all these V drives is still going.
Select to expand quoteRamona said..lydia said..Ramona said..
Putting the V drive back in?
R, no v drive, it was a major decision as Vetus make a good V gear box but with the small size of new engines decision was made to fit a straight gear box and a new 27hp Vetus.
We will lose a little cabin space and the engine box will be the stairs so not losing that much usable space either but the simplicity was the key point.
Rough calculations show we will move the fuel tank and batteries (currently under a bunk) to the centre line aft of the new engine. so trim should be very close.
And I would rather have those items on the centre line.
The 27hp Vetus is lighter than the 20hp Lister which came out.
This has been the biggest lost cost on the job so far as I was pretty sure I could sort out the Lister, but at some time probarly to stop an overheat problem someone removed the heat exchanger core and was running raw water through both sides of the cooling system.
The boat then sat on the hard for 9 years without the system drained.
Damage to the cooling galleries would always be unknown and the water pumps needed complete replacement.
I could not have known this at the start but that is the risk you take.
Things you find out as you go
Mate with the alloy Cole 42 just rebuilt his V drive. The bloke in West Sydney that made all these V drives is still going.
whats a v drive ?
Engine faces aft usually under cockpit with shaft facing forward before connecting to v drive which ha s separate shaft going aft to the shaft log and out aft
Select to expand quotelydia said..
Engine faces aft usually under cockpit with shaft facing forward before connecting to v drive which ha s separate shaft going aft to the shaft log and out aft
thanks , .....interesting , were they popular ?
Not really, makes engine set up more compact but if separate v drive there is extra noise where gearbox v drive is better.
looked a power boat design the other day with 300hp through v drive gear box.
in late IOR days where you tried to get the shaft way forward at back at keel saw v drive with engine in centre of boat
Select to expand quotelydia said..
1. Pick the boat that is as close as possible to original condition and configuration.
2, The most expensive work will be repairing modifications (if you call them that) done after build.
3. Do not update the boat to 2018 but keep it a close as possible to original save for modern sail handling gear and electronics but simple is always best.
4, Deal with the big issues as soon a possible so cosmetic issues (which people always want to do first) are well last on the list.
5. A good restoration costs a great deal of money but a cheap renovation of an old boat is not a renovation at all.
6. Make it fun and rewarding, by doing the research and getting the history.
7. You find good candidates for restoration in unlikely places.
I am going through all that with my Lotus 9.2.
Dragging all the crap out the previous owner put in to make it supposedly more pretty.
Originality is everything with yachts, the same as it is with cars.
Do not ever think you are smarter than the designer.
Lydia
I spoke with Doug Brookers daughter a bit last week and she mentioned about the restoration of Defiance to Doug. He's keen to see updatesand photos, so I'll pass his details on offline.
Keep up the good work. Waiting for that sail.
Oh well, I've hacked around my own wooden half tonner a lot. Her issue is that while the Defiance was a very good example of a classic and well-sorted type, mine was rather experimental and very much limited by the rig and foil technology of the day.
Most of the standard examples of my half tonner have a hard time dealing with Folkboats and Holland 25s; the modified version plays with Holland 30s and S 80s, and is easier and nicer to cruise.
There's lots of different approaches. It's great that Lydia saved Defiance, which was a leader in a great era of Australian offshore racing.
Select to expand quotelydia said..
So this is my third timber boat restoration and I recommend everyone do it at least once but like everything there are rules.
1. Pick the boat that is as close as possible to original condition and configuration.
The last thing you want is somebody's better idea.
With Defiance, I am sure the S&S office knew best.
2, The most expensive work will be repairing modifications (if you call them that) done after build.
With Defiance the biggest repairs which should not have been required was removing a poorly installed anchor well and dealing with the consequences such as rot in the stem because of it and the need to replace three layers of planking caused by the failure to properly repair a leaking skin fitting.
3. Do not update the boat to 2018 but keep it a close as possible to original save for modern sail handling gear and electronics but simple is always best.
With Defiance there is no attempt to change the interior layout or cockpit. (Although Phil tells me the v berth was added since new but from the workmanship I am pretty sure I know whose work it is.)
4, Deal with the big issues as soon a possible so cosmetic issues (which people always want to do first) are well last on the list.
With defiance it was deal with rot on the deck, worm in the rudder and skin fitting repairs so the boat was sound and could sit until the next stage.
5. A good restoration costs a great deal of money but a cheap renovation of an old boat is not a renovation at all.
6. Make it fun and rewarding, by doing the research and getting the history.
People are generally great in helping, (special mention to Phil) as over time, for instance I have tracked down the original ad placed by Doug Booker (the builder) seeking a contract for a second build.
The motor sailer shown above was brought half sunk with no knowledge of the history but turned out to be very significant boat with great history and on hearing of the restoration the son of the original owner send me pics of the launch day in 1966 which had been displayed at his father's recent funeral service.
In the case of Defiance, if no one moved it was to cut up and dumped at the end of the week I intervened otherwise it was lost forever.
My weakness!
7. You find good candidates for restoration in unlikely places.
I first saw the Motorsailer up a creek north of Bribie island and thought at the time, WTF is that doing there.
About a year later broker I keep in contact with called saying I might have something with me not knowing it was the same boat.
I had seen Defiance in the storage yard but heard of the redevelopment of it,so tracked down the owner,now in London!
So this not the complete list but just a few thoughts.
Cheers
Excellent advice!
This is never the pretty part, old engine out, tanks out, rig out, dusk everywhere from fairing inside coach house roof.
It is all up from here however.
Not much happening last few weeks as to too much rain to properly paint.
So stay tuned!
Hi Lydia, she looks like a beautifully built boat and you're doing a great job restoring her.
There must be close to as much work in the restoration as it would have been in the original build.
Select to expand quotelydia said..
So this is my third timber boat restoration and I recommend everyone do it at least once but like everything there are rules.
1. Pick the boat that is as close as possible to original condition and configuration.
The last thing you want is somebody's better idea.
With Defiance, I am sure the S&S office knew best.
2, The most expensive work will be repairing modifications (if you call them that) done after build.
With Defiance the biggest repairs which should not have been required was removing a poorly installed anchor well and dealing with the consequences such as rot in the stem because of it and the need to replace three layers of planking caused by the failure to properly repair a leaking skin fitting.
3. Do not update the boat to 2018 but keep it a close as possible to original save for modern sail handling gear and electronics but simple is always best.
With Defiance there is no attempt to change the interior layout or cockpit. (Although Phil tells me the v berth was added since new but from the workmanship I am pretty sure I know whose work it is.)
4, Deal with the big issues as soon a possible so cosmetic issues (which people always want to do first) are well last on the list.
With defiance it was deal with rot on the deck, worm in the rudder and skin fitting repairs so the boat was sound and could sit until the next stage.
5. A good restoration costs a great deal of money but a cheap renovation of an old boat is not a renovation at all.
6. Make it fun and rewarding, by doing the research and getting the history.
People are generally great in helping, (special mention to Phil) as over time, for instance I have tracked down the original ad placed by Doug Booker (the builder) seeking a contract for a second build.
The motor sailer shown above was brought half sunk with no knowledge of the history but turned out to be very significant boat with great history and on hearing of the restoration the son of the original owner send me pics of the launch day in 1966 which had been displayed at his father's recent funeral service.
In the case of Defiance, if no one moved it was to cut up and dumped at the end of the week I intervened otherwise it was lost forever.
My weakness!
7. You find good candidates for restoration in unlikely places.
I first saw the Motorsailer up a creek north of Bribie island and thought at the time, WTF is that doing there.
About a year later broker I keep in contact with called saying I might have something with me not knowing it was the same boat.
I had seen Defiance in the storage yard but heard of the redevelopment of it,so tracked down the owner,now in London!
So this not the complete list but just a few thoughts.
Cheers
Hoop, to add the the list:
8. Unless you have unlimited funds do not try to do it all at once and more importantly your view of what is important will change over time.
9. Waiting to get the right people is more important than a quick finish to the job (it is not a new built with a deadline)
In my case I have been incredible fortunate to have two great teams on the job at different times.
(Don't put your chest out too far there Boty)
10. Be patient about progress, and don't over manage it.
At present we are in rainy season so the cosmetic stuff is slow.
I only usually only check the boat every Sunday morning take some pics then have a few phones call early in the week.
But you must always keep talking to the guys doing the work.
11. Have a realistic budget from the start.
This one will cost about 25 times what I paid for the boat to start with but at the end I don't have a 47 year old boat what I have is a 47 year old boat with a 2018 engine, a 2018 paint job and rigging and electrics. And a useful life of another 47 years.
So in real terms it will be a bit less than twice the cost of a GRP Savage Defiance 30 if you did a new engine rigging and electrics and paint job so you had like with like.
So for me I am happy to pay that price for the history!
12. It has to be a boat you want long term.
I used to keep an old Etchells in the water for twilights but objection from the girls in the family was that there was no loo and you sat on the boat not in it so to speak. (Might spill the Chardonnay)
So Defiance has a loo the size of a cabin and you sit in the cockpit not on the boat.
Lastly Hoop I see there is a good candidate for a restoration in WA at present on Gumtree
Lydia,
you speak of another potential restoration project in Perth...Care to share?
First rule of projects, never finish one without at least one more to start!
Select to expand quotePhilY said..
Can't wait for the finished product CC.
Phil, you better book in 14/15 July for the Qld Ton of Fun IOR regatta. (aka Re-launch party)
There, I have put the hex on the project.
Select to expand quotelydia said..
Phil, you better book in 14/15 July for the Qld Ton of Fun IOR regatta. (aka Re-launch party)
There, I have put the hex on the project.
You better count me in on that one. If there is no re-naming we can drink the Moet instead of splashing it on the keel.
