Select to expand quoteRamona said..Madmouse said..
He got rescued by Kirsten who sailed him to the bulk carrier. He's safe.
At least with this one we might get to hear what actually occurred or at least a best guess. Sounds like a skin fitting failure from my armchair. Rudder post could have given away too I suppose but long keelers tend to protect the post.
goldengloberace.com/tapio-is-safe-and-sound/?fbclid=IwAR2Dq_SZo4TF2dNsp_v8jInEyEX2hKnbvTSB1UdCen42_aIljWf82AMTJK0
Its kind of annoying that we haven't heard anything and yet they are going on with drawn out relatively boring updates on who might be doing 3 1/2 knots and who is doing 2 1/2 knots ... Perhaps communications are such that he cannot have access to the cargo ships radio for an interview. It would think however that this could be arranged. Even if this is the case they should comment and tell us why there is no news.
I simply don't understand how the failure of a skin fitting results in the loss of a yacht which supposedly had so many watertight bulkheads isolating the skin fittings and indeed the whole stern area multiple times. It's quite scary that someone who has gone to such extreme measures still loses their yacht in what was reportedly fairly benign conditions.
I am particularly interested as I spent an awful lot of time glassing in a new bulkhead in front of my rudder post and sealing a ridiculous number of holes where horizontal conduits such as exhaust, cockpit drains, bilge pump lines, throttle cables, electrics... pass through bulkheads after some considerable thought on the subject.
If he was asleep or in the cabin and didn't notice until the trim of the yacht was really bad it may have been impossible to discover exactly where the leak was. Even if this is the case he must have his suspicions which would be good to hear. Certainly sounds like he is in reasonable spirits and in a position to comment.
I think a skin fitting failure under the cockpit, behind or near the engine would be hard to get to in a hurry to bang in a bung. The usual dragging a spare sail over the exterior to cover the hole might have been difficult with the shape of the hull. The one thing about this race and the previous one is they actually pass on the details of the failures so I'm sure we will eventually get the good guff.
Select to expand quoteRamona said..
I think a skin fitting failure under the cockpit, behind or near the engine would be hard to get to in a hurry to bang in a bung. The usual dragging a spare sail over the exterior to cover the hole might have been difficult with the shape of the hull. The one thing about this race and the previous one is they actually pass on the details of the failures so I'm sure we will eventually get the good guff.
Strange because at about two-thirds of the way through (14.40) this pre race boat tour video he states that ALL through hull fittings are sandwiched between two bulkheads which are quite close to each other beneath the cockpit. Surely the boat could not then sink although I guess if a connected hose rather than the through-hull itself failed outside the bulkheads and the sea cock was not turned off??
Good to hear he is safe and good to see a fellow competitor picked him up. Good to see she had a nice bottle of rum onboard and said it was nothing.
Haven't watched the vid but can't see why you would want too put watertight bulk heads either side of seacocks. Keep them well serviced and accessible. It is very rare for a boat too sink due to a seacock problem. When they do it's because they were not in good condition or cheap plastic.
When you pull your transducer/log and stick the plunger in, the through hull fittings are mainly made by Airmar. There is a little flap that slows water flow and you simply push the plunger in and screw it down. If there is something that has never leaked and you can always undo on any boat I've been on it's this fitting. Put some Vaseline on the thread and it's even easier. I contacted them and various companies years ago too make seacocks the same. Nobody was interested. How many of use have spent hours/days trying too sort out a stuck seacock. How many of us have sailed around with a seacock that has the handle snapped off. Or just pull it out and replace it like a transducer, hey you might even carry a spare onboard.
Select to expand quotewww.facebook.com/100063768451833/posts/pfbid0238TaJSN6DvSgeGws32rSxucWuYWSEmu4YvSjy32N6sAqosbbkajRHfP3EpdPVonQl/?mibextid=Nif5oz.
Sinking by the stern may have been a red herring. Shipping container? What else makes a big bang apart from the rig breaking which he would certainly have noticed and commented on? Hope Portuguese Orca behaviour isn't escalating/spreading.
Good thing he wasn't a heavy sleeper as it sounds like there wasn't much reaction-time. Interesting he calls it "calm conditions". Still enough wind and speed or motion to hole the boat. Sad.
Select to expand quote
"I woke up to a loud bang" - Tapio Lehtinen tells HS about the sinking of the boat and his rescue
Tapio Lehtinen only had a moment to act, when the Asteria boat quickly began to fill with water. The most critical moment was when he had to jump into the life raft. During the day, he saw birds in the life raft and a poisonous jellyfish. We had rum drinks with the rescuer.
TAPIO LEHTINEN had to act in seconds when his Asteria boat started to fill with water on Friday in the Indian Ocean.
Lehtinen spent the night before Saturday in a life raft, where he was found with the help of a distress signal by Kirsten Neusch?fer , the South African Golden Globe Race solo sailing competitor .
From Neusch?fer's boat, Lehtinen got onto the Hong Kong-flagged cargo ship Darya Gayatri.
Lehtinen sent HS an e-mail from the ship the night before Sunday, in which he told about a dramatic moment on the Asteria boat and the night he spent on the life raft. Lehtinen said that the ship's satellite phone only works occasionally.
"I woke up on Friday around 8:30 a.m. to a loud bang. Get out of here. Because of the safety net, it took twenty seconds. At that point, the water was knee-deep in the boat's saloon. More water flooded the engine compartment at the rear," says Lehtinen.
From the huge amount of water, Lehtinen immediately understood that the boat was sinking.
"I dug out the radio, grab bag [emergency kit] and survival suit from the boat. I threw them on the deck in the sitting box. At that point, the water was waist-deep. I went on deck and put on my survival suit. I detached and launched the life raft into the water next to the boat."
LEHTINEN says that he still tried to get back inside Asteria, but it was already full of water.
"The water level in the saloon was 20 centimeters from the deck. It was impossible to go inside. The boat was still floating up to the deck in the water, the bow a little higher."
According to the Finnish skipper's description, the situation was dire.
"The most critical moment was when the pull knot of the life raft came loose. Fortunately, the weather was almost calm. I took a long leap into the water, grabbed the board and jumped in."
After this, Lehtinen could only watch as the "old lady" or the Asteria boat sank into the sea.
"I longingly followed Asteria's death struggle. The stern went under the water first. It sank slowly into the waves. At the last moment, I stood up shakily in the life raft and put my hand in the cap as a last salute to my friend."
Lehtinen does not want to think about what caused the boat to sink at this stage.
"Unfathomable thing. The boat was completely rebuilt almost five years ago. Everything except the survival suit and kalsars remained in the Asteria."
Lehtinen describes the day he spent on the RESCUE RAFT AS A WONDERFUL NATURE EXPERIENCE.
"First the afternoon sun dried my clothes before night. Next to the life raft, big black fairy birds started to gather. I don't know if they were local vultures. I didn't even dare to fart, lest they think the guy is already starting to rot."
"The birds kindly came to socialize next to the raft. A couple of birds even touched my hand with their beaks."
At night, Lehtinen says he woke up twice when there were albatrosses next to the life raft. He also saw a Portuguese man-of-war, which is a poisonous polyp like a jellyfish, which is dangerous to humans.
"Atlantis didn't have them at all. As a last treat, half an hour before Kirsten's arrival, a sea turtle appeared next to the life raft."
LEHTINEN SAYS THAT THE RESCUE OPERATION went brilliantly with the help of Neusch?fer.
"Getting onto the ship from the life raft would have been difficult, but the ship turned sideways to the wind. Kirsten drove her boat to shelter from the wind. A sling was thrown from the ship, with which I was pulled to the side of the ship in the life raft. Before that, Kirsten and I took sip/bit of rum."
Lehtinen climbed onto the ship with a ladder up to the side of the ship. The life raft was hoisted onto the ship with a rope.
"Now I have eaten two Indian meals and taken a shower. I got clean clothes. My kalsarit are already spinning in the dryer. The sadness of the end of the race hasn't fully hit yet. It would have been great to continue until the end, but life doesn't stop here."
IN AUTUMN 2023, Lehtinen will again sail around the globe. He participates in the Ocean Globe Race (OGR) with a crew of 12 on the Galiana boat.
The 2023 race is the 50th anniversary race of the first Whitbread sailing in 1973. In 1983, Lehtinen took part in the Whitbread race as watchmaster of the Skopbank of Finland boat.
"OGR will be sailing with flags flying until the end. First, let's find out what can be learned from this case."
Darya Gayatri is on her way to Rizhao, China, where the cargo ship will arrive in about a month. It is not yet known whether Lehtinen will have the opportunity to get off the ship at some point.
Probs hit a container. Big bang, filled with water in a couple of minutes would have to be a bigger hole than a skin fitting or rudder tube.
Select to expand quotestray said..
Probs hit a container. Big bang, filled with water in a couple of minutes would have to be a bigger hole than a skin fitting or rudder tube.
Seems you'd be right??
From quick googling a 50mm throughull ?might? put through 200l / minute at lowish pressure like ~1m underwater.
5 minutes I read so 1,000 kg into a ~4500kg boat in reportedly mild conditions.
He wan't quite in the Southern Ocean but kinda middle of nowhere, seems stupid unlucky to hit a container there??
Very unlucky but there is some crazy number of containers that get lost at sea every year. So only more and more of them out there.
Select to expand quotetarquin1 said..
Very unlucky but there is some crazy number of containers that get lost at sea every year. So only more and more of them out there.
Yes, although 3,000 (assuming they all had some kind of positive buoyancy) in 360 million square km is some unlucky math !
"There was a four-fold increase in the number of containers lost overboard during the 2020 - 2021 compared to the previous two-year. According to figures from the World Shipping Council (WSC) 3,133 containers were lost overboard in the 2020 - 2021 period compared to 779 in the previous period, an increase of 400% "
Unfortunately we will probanly never know what happened.
there was a bang reported so if not a hard floating object, maybey an angrey whale or some kind of hull failure due to forces from the rig?
forums.ybw.com/index.php?threads/ggr-22.587558/page-10
My theory of why the boat sank. Heavier rigging, higher tensions, old boat, stress concentrations, cracked hull. Remember the Aussie Americas Cup racer that sank after cracking?
One Australia cracked and then sank due to compressive buckling failure of the deck in a moderate to maybe heavy seaway and with loads applied by genoa sheeting as well as the seaway inducing compressive loads in the deck which was an open design with sparse scantlings on the deck longitudinal deck structure to accept those compressive loads which caused the buckling failure.
www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2019/03/05/americas-cup-sinking-one-australia/
Another buckling hull failure more recently as here
www.sail-world.com/news/256271/Americas-Cup-Substantial-damage-after-nose-dive
Select to expand quoter13 said..
One Australia cracked and then sank due to compressive buckling failure of the deck in a moderate to maybe heavy seaway and with loads applied by genoa sheeting as well as the seaway inducing compressive loads in the deck which was an open design with sparse scantlings on the deck longitudinal deck structure to accept those compressive loads which caused the buckling failure.
www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2019/03/05/americas-cup-sinking-one-australia/
Another buckling hull failure more recently as here
www.sail-world.com/news/256271/Americas-Cup-Substantial-damage-after-nose-dive
In this instance the modified deck had multiple hatches cut into it, so compression failure is a possibility. Then there is a row of thru-hull holes on the tension side. All mods to the original design.
A bit more of an update here on Tapio's lost boat. The points made about the safety equipment are worth a read.
goldengloberace.com/golden-globe-race-lifesaving-regulations-asteria-sinking-lessons-to-be-learnt/?fbclid=IwAR1f7C2U3_PJCk9IFqeJAXm9UrVfxtv3zeacudXl9w4YNSu27gcH3HuUDkc
Kirsten Neushafer has stopped dead and is pointed back to N.Z. Abhilash Tony has just overtaken her to take 2nd place. Still a long way behind the leader.
Simon Curwen has just broken his Hydrovane self steering gear. This is the third one to break in this event. They don't like going downwind.
I think the selection of a hydrovane for the GG race highlights the skippers lack of knowledge in the area of wind vanes.
It's a really dumb decision
He didn't take spares " to save weight."
Considering the troubles that they have all had with steering systems.
It's a really dumb decision.
Says Gary sitting in his armchair.
Select to expand quoteJolene said..
I think the selection of a hydrovane for the GG race highlights the skippers lack of knowledge in the area of wind vanes.
It's a really dumb decision
Why, whats wrong with the hydrovane vs other wind vanes ?
Select to expand quotecammd said..Jolene said..
I think the selection of a hydrovane for the GG race highlights the skippers lack of knowledge in the area of wind vanes.
It's a really dumb decision
Why, whats wrong with the hydrovane vs other wind vanes ?
Good question. I'm looking for a wind vane system and would appreciate the guidance.
K.
Select to expand quotecammd said..Jolene said..
I think the selection of a hydrovane for the GG race highlights the skippers lack of knowledge in the area of wind vanes.
It's a really dumb decision
Why, whats wrong with the hydrovane vs other wind vanes ?
There are two main types of windvane self steering gear. The rudder type like the Hydrovane where the tiller is fixed in place and the rudder steers, large windvane needed to alter the rudder with a Z crank. Disadvantages, large windvane needed for power, large heavy rudder and shaft. The shaft is heavy and why they don't carry spares. The other family is the servo assist wind vane self steering gear. Aries, Fleming, Monitor, Seafeather, Sailomat, Beaufort, Norvane, Neptune and a few others or you can just build your own. New these are all at least half the price of a Hydrovane. Not sure of any disadvantages.
This is my 40-year-old Aries which has circumnavigated on an old steely. I don't plan on any maintenance yet.
Thanks for the reply Ramona, I think I read somewhere that Hydrovane was the most common choice for this GG, why would so many choose it over the servo assist types, are they the only ones that are still being made. I contacted Fleming recently to see if I could buy a new wind foil for mine, just to have a spare, and got a reply that the company was no longer trading.
As a side note what would be a good replacement for the windfoil, I have an original fleming one, plus one that looks like it is made from corflute. The corflute one is not as stiff as the original, any suggestions for spares
To add to Ramona"s comments. Hydrovanes use the power of the wind to steer the boat without using the boats rudder.
Servo pendulum windvanes steer the boat using the boats rudder and the energy from the boats forward movement through the water.
Servo pendulum windvanes are an attachment to the boats steering system where as hydrovanes are not,, they are an independent system.
I find it rather ignorant to be relying on bolt on after market rudder to steer the boat (probably when you need it most).
Hydrovanes have their pro's but none of them really should appeal to a GG racer.
Hydrovane have excellent marketing propaganda.
Perhaps they choose Hydrovanes because they can function as a back-up rudder. They can do that because they can exert a large force on the water, but that conversely also means the forces on them when they are banged around (eg by following seas) are large. Hence, sometimes kaput.
Says Graeme from the comfort of his sun-lounge
Hydrovane have excellent marketing propaganda.
I think we can rewrite that sentence in past tense, Jolene.
Says Gary from his kitchen table.
Select to expand quotecammd said..
Thanks for the reply Ramona, I think I read somewhere that Hydrovane was the most common choice for this GG, why would so many choose it over the servo assist types, are they the only ones that are still being made. I contacted Fleming recently to see if I could buy a new wind foil for mine, just to have a spare, and got a reply that the company was no longer trading.
As a side note what would be a good replacement for the windfoil, I have an original fleming one, plus one that looks like it is made from corflute. The corflute one is not as stiff as the original, any suggestions for spares
I think the Flemings and Monitors etc use Tunnelcore in 8mm. It's the same as corflute really. The 8mm stuff is only in some Bunnings store for some reason. I have made blades from 3 mm Corflute with epoxy over cloth sheathing. The best one was 8mm cedar tapered down to a 3mm leading edge with a spoiler on the rear edge. You can do anything you like as long as the surface area is close to the original and the weight is adjusted to get the balance right. The Fleming has plenty of adjustment both vertical and athwart-ship with the weight.
I think the Fleming bloke tried to sell the business and had no luck and retired. The others I mentioned are still going as far as I know. The winner of the first GG race used a Hydrovane. It's a shame they never copied his use of the multi coats of antifoul!
Select to expand quotecammd said..
Thanks for the reply Ramona, I think I read somewhere that Hydrovane was the most common choice for this GG, why would so many choose it over the servo assist types, are they the only ones that are still being made. I contacted Fleming recently to see if I could buy a new wind foil for mine, just to have a spare, and got a reply that the company was no longer trading.
As a side note what would be a good replacement for the windfoil, I have an original fleming one, plus one that looks like it is made from corflute. The corflute one is not as stiff as the original, any suggestions for spares
Sorry typing while Ramona was. Maybe some of the below is of use.
A bit of marine ply of suitable thickness shaped to the outline with jigsaw and power planed down to the cross section aerofoil shape then epoxy resin and normal 6oz woven glass cloth or even carbon fibre woven cloth should do it? Say 1/2 a day labour total but not much $s if you go for the Whitworths 175g woven glass. Many other cloth and epoxy resin suppliers out there now.
See prior post here
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Sailing/General/Fleming-Windvane-2?page=1
Select to expand quoter13 said..cammd said..
Thanks for the reply Ramona, I think I read somewhere that Hydrovane was the most common choice for this GG, why would so many choose it over the servo assist types, are they the only ones that are still being made. I contacted Fleming recently to see if I could buy a new wind foil for mine, just to have a spare, and got a reply that the company was no longer trading.
As a side note what would be a good replacement for the windfoil, I have an original fleming one, plus one that looks like it is made from corflute. The corflute one is not as stiff as the original, any suggestions for spares
Sorry typing while Ramona was. Maybe some of the below is of use.
A bit of marine ply of suitable thickness shaped to the outline with jigsaw and power planed down to the cross section aerofoil shape then epoxy resin and normal 6oz woven glass cloth or even carbon fibre woven cloth should do it? Say 1/2 a day labour total but not much $s if you go for the Whitworths 175g woven glass. Many other cloth and epoxy resin suppliers out there now.
See prior post here
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Sailing/General/Fleming-Windvane-2?page=1
You don't want an aerofoil shape. The sides have to be flat. A taper is fine though as long as the sides are flat. The Aries uses a light weight 5 ply plywood.
