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ISAF Selects Kiteboarding For Rio 2016

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Created by jusavina > 9 months ago, 5 May 2012
ggh
VIC, 190 posts
9 May 2012 10:25PM
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There are over a 150 ( I stopped counting ) sailing classes in the world ranging from racing dingies multihulls, trailer sailers and keeled yachts windsurfing is one of them . And interestingly enough you can break windsurfing down to another 4 disiplins with RSX being one .
The ISAF gets to choose 8 classes to represent the sport of sailing not only as a representation of skill but what the sport has to offer . Its not the windsurfers right to be there at all ,its due to good fortune and as Chris 249 said being organised .
Every sailing class I have been apart of had me a member of a sailing club and a member of the class association. Windsurfing very doubtful any of us are mebers of anything .
This will have no effect on me or any of the sailers who I sail with. Sailing is still in the OLympics and if your good enough to get in the Australian sailing team then lets face it if you try hard enough you are probably able to win in any class you enter .

Chris 249
NSW, 3334 posts
9 May 2012 10:53PM
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Kitepower Australia said...

Hi Chris

Not sure why you are not aware that there has been kite racing happening on Botany Bay for the last 2 summers? I've run the series and it has grown in popularity and now has attracted several young people that have come across from a sailing background. I'm positive many more will come. There was always a jetski in attendance and we had the ability to call on other vessels if the need arose, although it never did.

That's cool and good on you for doing something, but my post was in reply to AUS126's and I was pointing out that the change is not as simple as getting a different board. Kids will also have to move clubs, often spend a long time driving instead of going to a local club, etc. I know there's not many Sydney kids racing boards, but we actually ended up with a hot bunch of kids who did boats and boards. Half of the kids in the top 12 of the 100+ boats in the Flying 11 states are also Windsurfer One Design/Techno racers, for example; they have won states or nationals in the 11s, the Manly Juniors, the Mirrors, etc. They windsurfed at home or at their dinghy clubs, but they cannot do that with kites.

I was wrong for saying that there were no rescue boats and I apologise for that, but the point is that there's not much of the infrastructure that parents and kids seem to like. Nor does the area have as many junior dinghy sailors as other areas, so there's fewer kids who could easily switch.


Kitesurfing is not banned at any sailing club that I know of. Any sailing club that discriminates against young members that want to explore kiting is just going to hurt their own club and add to the membership of one of the clubs on Botany Bay.

Clubs that concentrate on one aspect of a sport do pretty well, so they don't necessarily lose out by banning kites. Take the biggest two small-boat clubs in NSW (Belmont and Manly) - they have very restrictive rules about what classes they allow in. It's a bit like footy - if you had a club that allowed soccer AND league AND gridiron AND union AND touch AND gaelic then it would be a mess.


Kiting has co-existed down here with sailing, windsurfing, fishermen and motor boats for well over a decade with very little conflict.

Sure, but Botany Bay is about 4.5km wide at its narrowest point and 8km long, so you can't compare it to where I sail which is 140m wide at its narrowest, 1.5km long, and has a similar number of sailing craft!

Kitesurfing is not allowed in Sydney Harbor, but thats not a law, thats just a voluntary request from NSW Maritime, and was based on older technology kites that were very hard to relaunch, and that had ineffective depower and safety systems.
There is already discussion about having limited kite racing on the harbor, and I can see no problem with that if appropriate sailing rules and guidelines are followed which would need to include selecting a suitable area, and they do exist!

If limited kite racing can exist that's cool. Problem is, kites are specifically banned in the current Marine Safety Regs (see below) on all of Sydney Harbour.

Irrespective of the (huge) legal issues, do you see it happening at;

Middle Harbour, either The Spit or Balmoral, in almost all wind strengths and angles? How do you get a kiteboard off Balmoral, through the moorings and the dead-wind zones in many winds?

Iron Cove, off Parramatta River (that's where it's 140m wide in parts)? By the way, the rigging space is so limited that we have to shuffle boats around to get the dinghies past, so where would a kite fleet fit?

Manly?

Similar places?

Not just when the breeze is from the right place at the right strength, but at the time when kids can sail and want to sail?


Kiting's inclusion in the Olympics has nothing to do with windsurfings exclusion, although I can understand some people may see it that way.

There's a limited number of athletes and medals for sailing, if kiting came in some other event had to go out.

That's partly windsurfing's own fault because we've been ignoring the lessons of other Olympic sports and failing to make competition accessible, IMHO, but it is a fact that there is a limited number of events and there are many, many, many more boat racers than board racers so they deserve to stay in.


I'm also going to sit on the fence in regard to how successful kite racing will be as an olympic sport, although I feel very strongly that kite racing will become a very popular sport, simply because the gear involved is easily transportable and is affordable so young people can get into the sport more easily.
I also don't understand why windsurfing was dropped from the Olympics and I think it should still be part of the Olympics.


Steve McCormack - (Kitepower Australia owner)




Thanks Steve for the post, and as I said earlier you kiters have been good about this and I don't think it will really hurt windsurfing (although I really think there should be a transition to allow windsurfing to stay till 2016 at least).

I do think that in Sydney, at least, it's going to be harder to attract a big junior fleet into kite racing because the kiting areas do not have any of the clubs where kids tend to get into sailing.

However, there seem to be strict laws against kites in the Harbour;

MARINE SAFETY (GENERAL) REGULATION 2009 - SCHEDULE 3

SCHEDULE 3 - Waters in which kitesurfing and sailboarding prohibited

(Clause 13)

Part 1 - Waters in which kitesurfing prohibited

The waters of Port Jackson, including the waters of all tidal bays, rivers and their tributaries connected or leading to Sydney Harbour bounded by high-water mark and lying to the west of a line commencing at the southernmost point of North Head and running to the northernmost point of South Head.


See www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/maintop/view/inforce/subordleg+109+2009+cd+0+N

It's quite clearly in force on the NSW Legislation site.

See also the NSW Kiting association site at;

www.nswkba.com.au/locations/sydney

"SYDNEY - HARBOUR
Last Updated by Rob on Jan 9
SYDNEY HARBOUR IS OFF LIMITS TO ALL FORMS OF KITE FLYING AND KITE SURFING.

DO NOT KITE ANYWHERE INSIDE OF SYDNEY HARBOUR -- YOU WILL INCUR HEAVY FINES FROM NSW WATERWAYS POLICE AND POTENTIALLY HAVE YOUR GEAR CONFISCATED.

WATERWAYS POLICE ARE SERIOUS AND DO NOT MESS AROUND WITH WARNINGS"


and also on the map on the NSW association site, the Harbour is marked with red; as the map legend says

"Red Shaded areas These red shaded areas are to indicate areas where under no circumstance you should be kiting! These vary from council enforced bans to water ways restrictions etc. If any member were to have an incident in these areas that required claiming on the 3rd party insurance then there would be NO COVER as you are in breach of the safe kiting guidelines set out by AKSA and NSWKBA."

It took me a while to check that the Regs banning kites are current (I normally work in other areas) but it seems pretty clear and simple.

cammd
QLD, 3761 posts
10 May 2012 12:01AM
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Dam71 Wouldnt argue about the Mistral being a nice board I found and old one last year and bought it and really enjoyed sailing it. Ended up selling it it favour of the RSX because that is/was the board being raced in brisbane. Had it been raceboards or formulas then i would have got whatever was being raced. After having the rsx i have grown fond of it and looking at a value for money scenario I have got more use out of it in the last year then probably all the short boards i have over the total time i have had them. I hope racing still continues as i really enjoy it but mostly because my young lad has only just started techno and i would hate to see that fall over. Happy to support windsurf clubs and i am in fact a member of bayside sailboards but they dont offer course racing only slalom. RQYS runs racing every weekend over the summer season it makes sense for me because thats what i wanted to do. I love riding short boards and will do some slalom racing but i love the fact that i know racing at rq will be on every weekend regardless of conditions. Still think windsurfing should be more involved with sailing clubs mainly to cultivate youth into the sport but i wont go into all that again. Perhaps the exclusion of windsurfing from the Olympics will help to unite windsurfing across all disciplines. Anyway keep getting people to sign the petition and show support for all the sailors who just had their dreams taken away.

DAM71
QLD, 498 posts
10 May 2012 11:33AM
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cammd said...

Dam71 Wouldnt argue about the Mistral being a nice board I found and old one last year and bought it and really enjoyed sailing it. Ended up selling it it favour of the RSX because that is/was the board being raced in brisbane. Had it been raceboards or formulas then i would have got whatever was being raced. After having the rsx i have grown fond of it and looking at a value for money scenario I have got more use out of it in the last year then probably all the short boards i have over the total time i have had them. I hope racing still continues as i really enjoy it but mostly because my young lad has only just started techno and i would hate to see that fall over. Happy to support windsurf clubs and i am in fact a member of bayside sailboards but they dont offer course racing only slalom. RQYS runs racing every weekend over the summer season it makes sense for me because thats what i wanted to do. I love riding short boards and will do some slalom racing but i love the fact that i know racing at rq will be on every weekend regardless of conditions. Still think windsurfing should be more involved with sailing clubs mainly to cultivate youth into the sport but i wont go into all that again. Perhaps the exclusion of windsurfing from the Olympics will help to unite windsurfing across all disciplines. Anyway keep getting people to sign the petition and show support for all the sailors who just had their dreams taken away.




Hi Cammd,

I beg to differ, Bayside has tried all year to get course racing going. It was identified as an option to increase participation across a broader range of conditions. One local retailer went so far as to bring in a number of the starboard 295's so as to start a fleet. Initially the races were targeted as social / marathon style - but outside of the clubs members, no interest. Those that course race did not support the club, yet they support RQ, and more importantly, the majority of the kids doing the course programs started with Bayside, yet they no longer support the club. (Including our current No.1 RSX sailor in Qld, who started with Bayside)

Hence my post about windsurfers supporting clubs that have their interest at heart, and more importantly the revenue from 2 or 3 members for small clubs means a lot ($70 bills for your local windsurfing club, which helps your state and national body is not much - when compared to $900 for RQ) I would be surprised if RQ continue to support windsurfing now.

Scotf
QLD, 1241 posts
10 May 2012 11:40AM
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Nearly 15,000 votes on the petition. Good work but now it's time to get your social networks to work and get your friends to vote. The more votes we have the better chance of having the decision overturned.

The Kites VS Windsurfers issue isn't something I think we need to concern ourselves with. New sports should be allowed into the Olympics and I hope they excell but to dump a long standing sport, perfectly aligned with the Olympic model needs to be challenged at the very least.

Great point re supporting the local clubs DAM71. So many come and go simply due to the fact that we (generally speaking) as windsurfers, do not make the effort to physically go out and actually join the clubs - despite ridiculously cheap fees.

There are some great and enthusiastic people running events specifically for windsurfers and yet they struggle for members. We should understand that memberships drive the clubs, the more members, the more clubs, the stronger the institution, the louder the voice, the more money in the sport to lobby change...

Perhaps if nothing else comes out of the ISAF decision and the great support we are seeing in the petition, we should all take a step back and realise that if we don't stand together (as individuals, wholesalers, retailers, brands etc) then we are never going to have the presence we need to be taken seriously.

da vecta
QLD, 2512 posts
10 May 2012 12:41PM
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I say bring back the IMCO. Mostly because I've just bought one.

10 May 2012 2:50PM
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Chris 249 said...

That's cool and good on you for doing something, but my post was in reply to AUS126's and I was pointing out that the change is not as simple as getting a different board. Kids will also have to move clubs, often spend a long time driving instead of going to a local club, etc. I know there's not many Sydney kids racing boards, but we actually ended up with a hot bunch of kids who did boats and boards. Half of the kids in the top 12 of the 100+ boats in the Flying 11 states are also Windsurfer One Design/Techno racers, for example; they have won states or nationals in the 11s, the Manly Juniors, the Mirrors, etc. They windsurfed at home or at their dinghy clubs, but they cannot do that with kites.

I was wrong for saying that there were no rescue boats and I apologise for that, but the point is that there's not much of the infrastructure that parents and kids seem to like. Nor does the area have as many junior dinghy sailors as other areas, so there's fewer kids who could easily switch.



No worries Chris, kiting is a completely different form of sailing to dinghys and sailboards, and its going to take some more time for people already in sailing, in those activities, to get their heads around it.
I reckon many will not even bother to understand, but hopefully they will not get nasty and discriminate against those that do want to kite race/sail.
I agree kiting is not as accessible.



Chris 249 said...
Clubs that concentrate on one aspect of a sport do pretty well, so they don't necessarily lose out by banning kites. Take the biggest two small-boat clubs in NSW (Belmont and Manly) - they have very restrictive rules about what classes they allow in. It's a bit like footy - if you had a club that allowed soccer AND league AND gridiron AND union AND touch AND gaelic then it would be a mess.




Yeah thats understandable considering the number of classes and the clubs particular history, preferences, geography, etc.
All I meant is that kiting is not banned, excluded maybe? And I'm sure many clubs will not want or even be able to cater to kiting (as there is nowhere near the clubs location that is suitable to kite)

Chris 249 said...
Kiting has co-existed down here with sailing, windsurfing, fishermen and motor boats for well over a decade with very little conflict.

Sure, but Botany Bay is about 4.5km wide at its narrowest point and 8km long, so you can't compare it to where I sail which is 140m wide at its narrowest, 1.5km long, and has a similar number of sailing craft!


Yep some places you just cannot and would not kite. Same could be said for any sailing sport too, although with kiting there are more specific needs.

Chris 249 said...
If limited kite racing can exist that's cool. Problem is, kites are specifically banned in the current Marine Safety Regs (see below) on all of Sydney Harbour.


My bad Chris, when I was involved in talks with NSW Maritime in 2002/03, the restrictions were voluntary, now I can see that they have been made law, thanks for pointing this out.

Chris 249 said...
Irrespective of the (huge) legal issues, do you see it happening at;

Middle Harbour, either The Spit or Balmoral, in almost all wind strengths and angles? How do you get a kiteboard off Balmoral, through the moorings and the dead-wind zones in many winds?

Iron Cove, off Parramatta River (that's where it's 140m wide in parts)? By the way, the rigging space is so limited that we have to shuffle boats around to get the dinghies past, so where would a kite fleet fit?

Manly?

Similar places?

Not just when the breeze is from the right place at the right strength, but at the time when kids can sail and want to sail?



No Chris, as I've said there are so many places in the harbor where you could not and would not want to kite. There are some places where kiting would be possible. Balmoral, Rose Bay, Neilsen Park, are a few I know work ok.

Chris 249 said...
There's a limited number of athletes and medals for sailing, if kiting came in some other event had to go out.

That's partly windsurfing's own fault because we've been ignoring the lessons of other Olympic sports and failing to make competition accessible, IMHO, but it is a fact that there is a limited number of events and there are many, many, many more boat racers than board racers so they deserve to stay in.



Something had to go, but the decision to select windsurfing to be excluded had nothing to do with the people lobbying for kiting to be included, thats all I meant.
Anything that keeps kids interested in a healthy outdoor activity has to be good, windsurfing ticks all the boxes as a conduit to a lifelong interest in sailing. I think kiting does and I think lots of people in sailing see that now too.

Steve McCormack - (Kitepower Australia owner)

choco
SA, 4032 posts
10 May 2012 5:32PM
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Windsurfing/Kiting can and do run their own championships they don't need the money hungry corrupt Olympics which is what they have become.

jh2703
NSW, 1222 posts
10 May 2012 6:17PM
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I seriously think its been about 4 year since I've even watched the Olympics, I don't think I'm going to miss it.

......it is a little sad for those people who have dedicated their lives to training and spent every bit of their earnings to get to that level, I wish those athletes all the best with the partition.

Richiefish
QLD, 5610 posts
10 May 2012 7:39PM
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When his baby smiled at him he went there..It's just that kind of place...

windsufering
VIC, 1124 posts
10 May 2012 7:47PM
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does this new box rule make other classes in danger too. The international Moth is a very advance sailing craft and very easy to watch ?

Mark _australia
WA, 22377 posts
10 May 2012 7:08PM
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Even better, the IOC does not know windsurfing is out apparently.

Reply to an email I sent:


"The Olympic programme is systematically reviewed after each edition of the Games to ensure it stays relevant to its audience. It is during this evaluation process that each International Federation reviews its own Olympic programme and suggests changes to its disciplines and events. The changes are then submitted to the Olympic Programme Commission, which will put forward a proposal to the IOC Executive Board for validation. The changes to the programme are validated three years prior to the Games.

The International Sailing Federation (ISAF) is currently going through this process and has yet to submit its proposal for Rio 2016 to the IOC. We suggest you contact them for more information on this matter. "

Bondalucci
VIC, 1579 posts
10 May 2012 9:32PM
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king of the point said...


what came first the egg or the chicken


no one knows which came first out of the egg or chicken.....

....but in the saying, the chicken definitely comes first.

pierrec45
NSW, 2005 posts
10 May 2012 11:20PM
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Whoever said: "the vast majority of people are happy to sail back and forth"

Is it not as simple as that? We may get annoyed once in a while and sign up Facebook petitions, but overall, windsurfing has become a purely recreational sport. At least 96% of all sailors I know have never and never will race or compete. Nor belong to a club or ever will. Even the local freestylers don't go out and compete.

There's nothing wrong with that, but I would simply imagine the continuous lobby for the Olympics and other support really comes from the hard work of a few... (which work I very, very much respect).

I would imagine the ISAF faced a bevy (?) of lobbying for the other activity, hence the result. No biggy ??

Mark _australia
WA, 22377 posts
10 May 2012 10:20PM
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pierrec45 said...

Whoever said: "the vast majority of people are happy to sail back and forth"

Is it not as simple as that? We may get annoyed once in a while and sign up Facebook petitions, but overall, windsurfing has become a purely recreational sport. At least 96% of all sailors I know have never and never will race or compete. Nor belong to a club or ever will. Even the local freestylers don't go out and compete.

There's nothing wrong with that, but I would simply imagine the continuous lobby for the Olympics and other support really comes from the hard work of a few... (which work I very, very much respect).

I would imagine the ISAF faced a bevy (?) of lobbying for the other activity, hence the result. No biggy ??


Is it not the same for kiting, where about 0.001% of people currently race?
I imagine very few people into (boat) sailing race competitively

pierrec45
NSW, 2005 posts
11 May 2012 5:14AM
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Mark _australia said...


Is it not the same for kiting, where about 0.001% of people currently race?
I imagine very few people into (boat) sailing race competitively

Yeah but the marketing drive and industry momentum are on their side, just like it was for windsurfing earlier in the 80s.

Upthere
QLD, 348 posts
11 May 2012 6:44AM
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Well here is something very interesting a re vote may be needed

"The Spanish Sailing Association apologizes for his mistake in voting between the kite and windsurfing, as olympic class. The president apologizes to all windsurfers Spanish for his mistake. Could this change something in November? I think so :)"

Windsurfing needed only ONE vote and the Spanish Federation vote by mistake cause they were confused ????

www.hugedomains.com/domain_profile.cfm?d=windsurfingtour&e=com



neilw
WA, 134 posts
11 May 2012 6:56AM
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Mark _australia said...

Is it not the same for kiting, where about 0.001% of people currently race?
I imagine very few people into (boat) sailing race competitively


Is it true that 87.5% of statistics are made up????????

BenKirk
NSW, 600 posts
11 May 2012 9:36AM
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pierrec45 said...

Whoever said: "the vast majority of people are happy to sail back and forth"

Is it not as simple as that? We may get annoyed once in a while and sign up Facebook petitions, but overall, windsurfing has become a purely recreational sport. At least 96% of all sailors I know have never and never will race or compete. Nor belong to a club or ever will. Even the local freestylers don't go out and compete.

There's nothing wrong with that, but I would simply imagine the continuous lobby for the Olympics and other support really comes from the hard work of a few... (which work I very, very much respect).

I would imagine the ISAF faced a bevy (?) of lobbying for the other activity, hence the result. No biggy ??


Pierre, I'd say that every beach around Sydney (for wavesailing) has at least 50% of sailors out who attend the NSW Wavesailing comps. Not the case though if you head to Palm Beach or of course Botany Bay.

jordangirdis
NSW, 178 posts
11 May 2012 9:59AM
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my 2 cents:

I'm a windsurfer and a kiter from a sailing background, but primarily a kiter.

I think it is a massive blow for Windsurfing to not be included in the games, it should be. However, just because Kitesurfing is in, doesn't mean that it kicked Windsurfing out, there are plenty of other classes as well.

Kite racing is just as tactical and skill orientated as normal sailboat racing, if not greater, as you need to call the shifts in the wind 30m away from you, and when going downwind look at the shifts downwind of you instead of upwind as you are sailing faster than the wind. It is also a little more athletic than other classes, minus windsurfing.

Yes it will be more exciting to watch than the other classes, from my session last week, in a very inconsistant mostly sub 10 knot breeze, the GPS showed speeds of 15-17 knots upwind, with a max of 21.35 downwind.

I feel sorry for people who have trained on RSXs. But you have got a serious skill set that can be applied to kite racing, which uses some similar board skills.

Mark _australia
WA, 22377 posts
11 May 2012 8:21AM
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As per the other thread, IOC told me that they don't know anything about it, but after ISAF submit the proposal it still needs to be ratified by the IOC board.
Thus if there is some conjecture about Spain not voting correctly etc, and lots of pressure from windsurfers you never know the IOC may still want us.
Everybody sign the petition!

Scotf
QLD, 1241 posts
11 May 2012 10:35AM
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Mark _australia said...

Even better, the IOC does not know windsurfing is out apparently.

Reply to an email I sent:


"The Olympic programme is systematically reviewed after each edition of the Games to ensure it stays relevant to its audience. It is during this evaluation process that each International Federation reviews its own Olympic programme and suggests changes to its disciplines and events. The changes are then submitted to the Olympic Programme Commission, which will put forward a proposal to the IOC Executive Board for validation. The changes to the programme are validated three years prior to the Games.

The International Sailing Federation (ISAF) is currently going through this process and has yet to submit its proposal for Rio 2016 to the IOC. We suggest you contact them for more information on this matter. "




Seems strange but hopefully it allows the ISAF to make a reversal on their decision before the submission and not leave too much egg on their faces.

Reading between the lines you are right, it is extreemly important we all get behind the petition to make our presence felt.

Chris 249
NSW, 3334 posts
11 May 2012 10:40AM
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Kitepower Australia said...

Something had to go, but the decision to select windsurfing to be excluded had nothing to do with the people lobbying for kiting to be included, thats all I meant.
Anything that keeps kids interested in a healthy outdoor activity has to be good, windsurfing ticks all the boxes as a conduit to a lifelong interest in sailing. I think kiting does and I think lots of people in sailing see that now too.

Steve McCormack - (Kitepower Australia owner)



Thanks Steve, and again you kiters have behaved really well over this - much respect!


hooray
QLD, 335 posts
11 May 2012 4:50PM
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Video September 2010

leftfield
WA, 190 posts
11 May 2012 3:23PM
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hooray said...

Video September 2010



AND?

Mark _australia
WA, 22377 posts
11 May 2012 6:45PM
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hooray said...

nothing


Yes kiting is very exciting, especially the speeds obtained on all points of 'sail' in light winds.
As is windsurf course racing

So what you mean to say is they should both be in the Olympics?

Kewl.

jusavina
QLD, 1463 posts
11 May 2012 8:49PM
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The olympic kitesurfing race will get # kites and a box rule for the board...
I could plane between 3 knots and 45 knots with 3 sails and a custom windsurfing board.
How did they compare a one design with a open class???

Chris 249
NSW, 3334 posts
11 May 2012 9:52PM
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Here's the English version.

[hmtl]www.hugedomains.com/domain_profile.cfm?d=windsurfingtour&e=com[/html]

Oh well, good on them for admitting it, IF it's true.... I can't find it on their official site as yet.

redsurfbus
304 posts
11 May 2012 8:00PM
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You ozzies get some of the blame according to this interview
""The Australians and Americans were consistently voting against windsurfing. They were joined by the Irish, who are not known to have a strong windsurf racing team. What was truly shocking, was the Spain who have a very, very strong windsurfing team, voted again windsurfing. This still leaves me speechless."

http://boards.mpora.com/news/rory-ramsden-interviewed-full-details-on-olympic-decision.html

Chris 249
NSW, 3334 posts
11 May 2012 10:02PM
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Here's the English version.

[hmtl]www.hugedomains.com/domain_profile.cfm?d=windsurfingtour&e=com[/html]

Oh well, good on them for admitting it!



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"ISAF Selects Kiteboarding For Rio 2016" started by jusavina