Anyway foiling is great and a new way of flying on the water. Only a foiler knows the feeling. David Ezzy says once you try foiling you will give up the longboards. Having tried foiling, I don't think I could give up longboards yet and I think the foiling gear and longboards can co-exist separately in a quiver.
Agree with everything. Even got into a big argument with a friend who is dead-set against foiling about the "Only a foiler knows the feeling" part. Foiling definitely reduces the TOW on longboards, but there are days where a longboard can be more fun. That said, I'd rather buy another foil than a new sail for a longboard. I always wanted a nice 9.5 m competitive longboard sail, but if you add in the cost for a mast, you might as well buy a nice all-carbon foil.
So in short, the answer we are looking for after 5 pages is...
yes.
Not quite. If you like going fast at 135 degrees off the wind, in a rolling ocean swell, as you occasionally find in certain locations...Corrimal for instance,( I'm sure there are others ) (sorry reliving the glory days now) then you can't beat windsurfing on a slapper.
One thing that has been ruined is the flat water gybe. Let's face it we all spent decades, with varying success, trying for the "perfect gybe" where you go in at 31 knots and come out at maybe 13 knots. (31^2 - 13^2 = lost 82% of kinetic energy). Was it worth it?
Well ... just to be fair to finning: now you do not enter at 30 and get out at 15 .. you are always going at 15
Anyway foiling is great and a new way of flying on the water. Only a foiler knows the feeling. David Ezzy says once you try foiling you will give up the longboards. Having tried foiling, I don't think I could give up longboards yet and I think the foiling gear and longboards can co-exist separately in a quiver.
Agree with everything. Even got into a big argument with a friend who is dead-set against foiling about the "Only a foiler knows the feeling" part. Foiling definitely reduces the TOW on longboards, but there are days where a longboard can be more fun. That said, I'd rather buy another foil than a new sail for a longboard. I always wanted a nice 9.5 m competitive longboard sail, but if you add in the cost for a mast, you might as well buy a nice all-carbon foil.
Thankfully foil sails perform really well on longboards. At least the Flyer and Phantom do.
So SB claim IQfoil racing is possible from 5-35kns in any sea condition with one rig (which is a 9m sail for men).
windsurf.star-board.com/products/iqfoil/
"The iFoil boards are just amazing. With one board, one foil, two fuselages, one rig and one fin you can cover 5-35 knots - no matter the sea conditions - you will race!"
Is this realistic?
After watching local foil racers and this video of foil racing in PWA in 25-30 kns, i'm not so sure:
So SB claim IQfoil racing is possible from 5-35kns in any see condition with one rig (which is a 9m sail for men).
windsurf.star-board.com/products/iqfoil/
"The iFoil boards are just amazing. With one board, one foil, two fuselages, one rig and one fin you can cover 5-35 knots - no matter the sea conditions - you will race!"
Is this realistic?
After watching local foil racers and this video of foil racing in PWA in 25-30 kns, i'm not so sure:
They have the option to fin at higher wind speeds. Gusts at the PWA regatta exceeded 30. Far exceeded it.
"Just to try and put into perspective how windy it truly was, the maximum recorded gust today was 59.9 knots as the Tramontana showed its face for the first time since the 2011 edition. "
Foil has saved windsurfing, not killed it. Think of how many people left Windsurfing because they got tired of looking at the kiters have all the fun in 12knts of wind while we had our arms folded wishing for another 5 knts. Those days are gone, we don't even need the 9.0 sails anymore. Now I can foil when other windsurfers are schlogging. For me it doesn't replace windsurfing, it keeps me a happy windsurfer who has an alternative in lighter winds. When the wind picks up, I'm windsurfing.
DC
Foil has saved windsurfing, not killed it. Think of how many people left Windsurfing because they got tired of looking at the kiters have all the fun in 12knts of wind while we had our arms folded wishing for another 5 knts. Those days are gone, we don't even need the 9.0 sails anymore. Now I can foil when other windsurfers are schlogging. For me it doesn't replace windsurfing, it keeps me a happy windsurfer who has an alternative in lighter winds. When the wind picks up, I'm windsurfing.
DC
Saying foiling has saved windsurfing is drawing a long bow?
Compared to this topic double as many posts on the LT one and 5 times as many in the topic reviewing the LT.
LT isn't perfect but expect it will do more for the sport as beginners can give it a go.
Foiling looks great (haven't done it...or kiting...or wind winging etc) but is another high performance development of our sport that will mainly appeal to the already converted.
Yeah but all the posts on the LT thread are all from the same person with vested interest.
lotofwind "5427 posts" and still banging on !
Compared to this topic double as many posts on the LT one and 5 times as many in the topic reviewing the LT.
There is a good reason for that. People who foil spend there time foiling as it is so much fun. Perhaps if I had an LT instead I would find more time to post.
Compared to this topic double as many posts on the LT one and 5 times as many in the topic reviewing the LT.
There is a good reason for that. People who foil spend there time foiling as it is so much fun. Perhaps if I had an LT instead I would find more time to post.
Testing your proposition seems to indicate you are likely wrong. Simply put, foiling has its own devoted section on this website, so it must have more prolific posters so not sure your statement is supported by fact. The LT posts are ,more concentrated on a few threads, so the appearance is amplified, so would doubt both the correctness of your statement and also that of the other person who you are responding to.
They have the option to fin at higher wind speeds. Gusts at the PWA regatta exceeded 30. Far exceeded it.
"Just to try and put into perspective how windy it truly was, the maximum recorded gust today was 59.9 knots as the Tramontana showed its face for the first time since the 2011 edition. "
www.catsailingnews.com/2019/05/pwa-windsurf-foil-costa-brava-2019-day-2-images-by-john-carter.html
Nope!
Just NOPE!!!!
Either the wind conditions in that video were not representative, or the winds were not much over 25-30 KNOTs!
There is no visual evidence in those videos of 40 knots winds, let alone 60 knots!
Perhaps you have your Knots and KM/H mixed up?
I dont care how big, strong and skilled you are. there is no way anyone is standing up with an 8m sail in 35-40 knots and not being flattened or rag dolled. Let alone sailing downwind. Sheesh. Such macho exaggerated BS!!! Anyone who has ever stood holding a sail in TRUE 40+ knows better!
I fully agree that it must have been quite terrifying to sail. That alone is enought to have you thinking it's imminent armageddon!
And for those guys to handle the 25-30 that it looks like, and complete the course on that kit is amazing in itself. Great respect.
Oh, and they clearly said in the video that this was a 'Foiling Only' event, so to me that means they didnt have the option to sail fins.
I think the obvious answerer is YES. No need for a semi trailer to get your big old heavy wally boats to the beach anymore like in the olden days, and then need 2 people to carry it to a boat ramp for launching. lol., short wide board is only needed, much smaller and lighter. Faster and more maneuverable and gets a waaaay better upwind angle than anything else out there.
They don't nose dive in chop and swell, well, you float above the chop on a magic carpet ride. Foils are the future, anything else is like trying to bring back a VHS , why would you take a step backwards to the 70's(50yrs ago) when you can be more efficient in the 2020's ?????
But there will always be the "back in my day" style crew that try to make others live like it was way back then.
Im sure in 50 years I'll be saying " back in my day, we rode foils, not these WiFi controlled hover boards"
They have the option to fin at higher wind speeds. Gusts at the PWA regatta exceeded 30. Far exceeded it.
"Just to try and put into perspective how windy it truly was, the maximum recorded gust today was 59.9 knots as the Tramontana showed its face for the first time since the 2011 edition. "
www.catsailingnews.com/2019/05/pwa-windsurf-foil-costa-brava-2019-day-2-images-by-john-carter.html
Nope!
Just NOPE!!!!
Either the wind conditions in that video were not representative, or the winds were not much over 25-30 KNOTs!
There is no visual evidence in those videos of 40 knots winds, let alone 60 knots!
Perhaps you have your Knots and KM/H mixed up?
I dont care how big, strong and skilled you are. there is no way anyone is standing up with an 8m sail in 35-40 knots and not being flattened or rag dolled. Let alone sailing downwind. Sheesh. Such macho exaggerated BS!!! Anyone who has ever stood holding a sail in TRUE 40+ knows better!
I fully agree that it must have been quite terrifying to sail. That alone is enought to have you thinking it's imminent armageddon!
And for those guys to handle the 25-30 that it looks like, and complete the course on that kit is amazing in itself. Great respect.
Oh, and they clearly said in the video that this was a 'Foiling Only' event, so to me that means they didnt have the option to sail fins.
I was quoting the PWA who was quoting a wind meter. But, I'm sure you're right.
The question was could the iQfoil class sail in 25-30 or more. They do have the fin option. Try to keep up.
Edit: I rewatched the video (it's been a while, I've seen his whole series)
At 5:00, the Big Man, AA. He's rigging an 8, saying he'd prefer a 6 or 5. If he's thinking about rigging a 6 or 5 in a race, it's not 25 knots.
Compared to this topic double as many posts on the LT one and 5 times as many in the topic reviewing the LT.
The LT is very appealing to anyone who learned sailing on similar boards. At many places where I have sailed, that's the majority of the windsurfers. Quite a few of them have done the same "bump and jump" sailing for decades, and have little interest to learn new things or to look like fools while learning to foil.
Foiling appeals (mostly) to a different crowd. It looks cooler, and therefore more appealing to a younger crowd. It feels cool, which is a good reason to stick with it.
The one thing that is similar for the LT and foiling is that both allow for relatively rapid learning and steady improvement. That's a bit different from learning the basics on a big "door" board, and then trying to learn going fast on a shortboard. That second part is a lot harder, and many who try give up quickly. On the LT, you can learn to go quicker as the wind picks up, without having to learn to sail a completely different board. To learn foiling, you can stay on a board that's similar to a beginner board (wide and high volume), and use a small(-ish) sail. Within a couple of sessions, you get the idea what foiling might feel like: a totally new feeling that's just as cool as planing at full speed. After the first sessions, there are plenty of little success stories as you learn how to control the foil. It's a bit more rewarding than trying to learn to plane.
Right now, most foil beginners are quite decent windsurfers. Sometimes, that may make learning to foil harder, since you have to unlearn a few things (thinking about a certain stretchy windsurfer here as an example). In the future, we may see more beginners going straight to the foil after learning the basics of sail handling. I'd bet that the "stick" rate will be higher than it is for switching to shortboarding now. As they progress to smaller foilboards, more wind, and higher speeds, some may get interested in shortboarding.
They have the option to fin at higher wind speeds. Gusts at the PWA regatta exceeded 30. Far exceeded it.
"Just to try and put into perspective how windy it truly was, the maximum recorded gust today was 59.9 knots as the Tramontana showed its face for the first time since the 2011 edition. "
www.catsailingnews.com/2019/05/pwa-windsurf-foil-costa-brava-2019-day-2-images-by-john-carter.html
Nope!
Just NOPE!!!!
Either the wind conditions in that video were not representative, or the winds were not much over 25-30 KNOTs!
There is no visual evidence in those videos of 40 knots winds, let alone 60 knots!
Perhaps you have your Knots and KM/H mixed up?
I dont care how big, strong and skilled you are. there is no way anyone is standing up with an 8m sail in 35-40 knots and not being flattened or rag dolled. Let alone sailing downwind. Sheesh. Such macho exaggerated BS!!! Anyone who has ever stood holding a sail in TRUE 40+ knows better!
I fully agree that it must have been quite terrifying to sail. That alone is enought to have you thinking it's imminent armageddon!
And for those guys to handle the 25-30 that it looks like, and complete the course on that kit is amazing in itself. Great respect.
Oh, and they clearly said in the video that this was a 'Foiling Only' event, so to me that means they didnt have the option to sail fins.
People always overstate wind strength by quoting gusts. The reality is that a steady 30 knots is a lot, a real lot of wind. Few of us sail it. It is in the middle of force 7, one step below Gale, when you need to start worrying about branches snapped off trees!
Can you have a foil race in 30 knots with gusts 20-40? Maybe ... Has a foilboard a wind range that is much larger than any other windsurf? Starting from 6-8 knots? Yes.
Foiling has greatly improved my multi-fin shortboard riding, especially gybes. Using it as my light wind summer option means my brain stays in a front footed mode. A beginner who learns to foil will step onto a smaller waveboard pretty easily once they can't waterstart.
Longboards of all types don't translate, leaving people with a dead end skillset.
Foiling appeals (mostly) to a different crowd. It looks cooler, and therefore more appealing to a younger crowd. It feels cool, which is a good reason to stick with it.
Good to see someone has stoked the embers of this old flame of a thread.
I agree with much of what you wrote bfoardsurfr but...
I don't think foiling does appeal to a different crowd, almost all of the people I foil with also still participate in at least one other version of our sport. Where there doesn't seem to be any crossover is between long boarders and foilers, which has a whiff of irony - I am now convinced that despite the steep learning curve foiling may be the best form of our sport for older folk. Much easier on the joints and smaller lightweight gear.
No one I foil with does it too look cool or feel cool. Possibly to outsiders it looks cooler but the TOW increase and thrilling new challenges appeal to me most and probably most foilers.
"Younger Crowd" is a relative term, I suspect foiling appeals to a younger crowd than the long board only group but at a guess the average age of the people I foil with would have to be 50+. My kids definitely don't consider that young.
You are spot on though regarding unlearning old habits when learning to foil, as most new foilers learn, too much sudden back foot pressure is a great way to do a partial inadvertent back loop and usually results in the learning asking themselves, "What the f..k just happened".
You exaggerate Belly, the average age of the three guys you foiled with yesterday is only 49.5
Sorry of this has been covered, but just wondering how easily does a foil board point upwind compared to a compatible kit for a given wind speed?
Sorry of this has been covered, but just wondering how easily does a foil board point upwind compared to a compatible kit for a given wind speed?
From my experience generally windfoil will out point conventional gear (Slalom) especially if using race foil gear,
In all conditions as long as the foil is airborne.
I have climbed over Keelboats on some occasions and usually slightly higher than moths.
I have sailed over Wally lts as well.
when I wing foil I can point quite high as well at least as much as a Slalom setup.
I must add I currently race
Windfoil
Windsurfer LT
and keelboats
so I find the various threads
on wallys v Foils etc
quite amusing.
Racing Wallys is not for everyone and I strongly suspect the crew that bag wallys have never sailed or raced one so their opinions are base on assumption and lack of education.
Wally racing is IMO more closely related to dinghy sailing than Modern windsurfing.
The appeal is the tactical racing that slalom racing doesn't have and the fact everyone is on the same gear
so it's the purest and fairest form of Sailboard racing add weight divisions
and its even better.
Apart from being awesome fun, foiling adds extra TOW where you'd normally be standing on the shore praying for breeze.
Last night there was plenty of guys standing on shore waiting to see if it would pick up, while 4 or 5 others were out foiling around having a great time. :)
Apart from being awesome fun, foiling adds extra TOW where you'd normally be standing on the shore praying for breeze.
Last night there was plenty of guys standing on shore waiting to see if it would pick up, while 4 or 5 others were out foiling around having a great time. :)
Yep awesome foil last night
Early start to the proper foil season
Sorry of this has been covered, but just wondering how easily does a foil board point upwind compared to a compatible kit for a given wind speed?
From my experience generally windfoil will out point conventional gear (Slalom) especially if using race foil gear,
In all conditions as long as the foil is airborne.
I have climbed over Keelboats on some occasions and usually slightly higher than moths.
I have sailed over Wally lts as well.
when I wing foil I can point quite high as well at least as much as a Slalom setup.
I must add I currently race
Windfoil
Windsurfer LT
and keelboats
so I find the various threads
on wallys v Foils etc
quite amusing.
Racing Wallys is not for everyone and I strongly suspect the crew that bag wallys have never sailed or raced one so their opinions are base on assumption and lack of education.
Wally racing is IMO more closely related to dinghy sailing than Modern windsurfing.
The appeal is the tactical racing that slalom racing doesn't have and the fact everyone is on the same gear
so it's the purest and fairest form of Sailboard racing add weight divisions
and its even better.
What sort of setup were you on to out point a keel boat? I mean on the full race foil racefoil setup (HG2, 115plus, 900 wing etc etc) generally I point lower than most normal course racing boats but we also go much much faster, much like the moth. At 17-20kts upwind it's just not possible to out point a keelboat....well I never have. I'd also say that under 10 kts our angles are pretty horrific in sailing terms and don't really get that great until 12kts, imo. At 12kts you can almost pull the same angles as most boats but you're doing 17-18kts.
Sorry of this has been covered, but just wondering how easily does a foil board point upwind compared to a compatible kit for a given wind speed?
From my experience generally windfoil will out point conventional gear (Slalom) especially if using race foil gear,
In all conditions as long as the foil is airborne.
I have climbed over Keelboats on some occasions and usually slightly higher than moths.
I have sailed over Wally lts as well.
when I wing foil I can point quite high as well at least as much as a Slalom setup.
I must add I currently race
Windfoil
Windsurfer LT
and keelboats
so I find the various threads
on wallys v Foils etc
quite amusing.
Racing Wallys is not for everyone and I strongly suspect the crew that bag wallys have never sailed or raced one so their opinions are base on assumption and lack of education.
Wally racing is IMO more closely related to dinghy sailing than Modern windsurfing.
The appeal is the tactical racing that slalom racing doesn't have and the fact everyone is on the same gear
so it's the purest and fairest form of Sailboard racing add weight divisions
and its even better.
What sort of setup were you on to out point a keel boat? I mean on the full race foil racefoil setup (HG2, 115plus, 900 wing etc etc) generally I point lower than most normal course racing boats but we also go much much faster, much like the moth. At 17-20kts upwind it's just not possible to out point a keelboat....well I never have. I'd also say that under 10 kts our angles are pretty horrific in sailing terms and don't really get that great until 12kts, imo. At 12kts you can almost pull the same angles as most boats but you're doing 17-18kts.
Certainly not all keelboats but quite a few of the twilighters such as spacey 22 etc
on wed nights on the river, usually in lighter winds.
Im usually using the millennium wing on the star race set.
i might add I'm 75kg.
I've stayed with a Melges 24 on freeride foiling gear. I had slightly better VMG but they had better angle. This is with a "slow" foiling set-up in challenging chop. On race gear somewhere flat I'd have walked away from them.
I don't think foiling does appeal to a different crowd, almost all of the people I foil with also still participate in at least one other version of our sport.
The "crowd" that I was talking about was a subset of windsurfers that is only interested in back-and-forth sailing. The "different crowd" includes various other subsets that like to play around more, for example freestylers, wave sailors, and speedsurfers.
Where there doesn't seem to be any crossover is between long boarders and foilers, which has a whiff of irony
Funny, that's different where I sail. Of the windsurfers who take out a longboard for fun, most of them have started foiling. One group that used to do longboard races a couple of times a year has switched almost entirely to foils. The only longboarder I know who won't get a foil is into high-level racing (nationals and worlds) and has a rather busy life. He does not get enough time on the water to add one more toy, and he's usually faster on his longboard than anyone on a Slingshot foil. Of course, the first time he tried foiled, he looked way better than any other foil beginner I have seen, flying on his first run and getting 200m+ controlled flights within 10 minutes. He liked it well enough, but not more than raceboarding. Anyway, he's the exception, against 10-15 "recreational longboarders" I know that have started foiling.
Compared to this topic double as many posts on the LT one and 5 times as many in the topic reviewing the LT.
There is a good reason for that. People who foil spend there time foiling as it is so much fun. Perhaps if I had an LT instead I would find more time to post.
Testing your proposition seems to indicate you are likely wrong. Simply put, foiling has its own devoted section on this website, so it must have more prolific posters so not sure your statement is supported by fact. The LT posts are ,more concentrated on a few threads, so the appearance is amplified, so would doubt both the correctness of your statement and also that of the other person who you are responding to.
Number of posts is one way of comparing. Perhaps another is in number of competitors in races - about 100 entrants in upcoming LT nationals.
I reckon foiling looks fantastic but with kids I just don't have time for another form of windsurfing and no one races them in my patch. That might change in future. The main reason I got the LT is to race and cruise with kids. LT has its shortcomings - sailing it off the wind in a blow can be a little scary with no footstraps.
Suggest the only people that can truly compare foil v say LT are those few that have done and raced both over a few seasons.
Suggest the only people that can truly compare foil v say LT are those few that have done and raced both over a few seasons.
Not sure why we are trying to compare foiling with the LT?
To quote John Peel (UK radio presenter) "Is Tuesday better than a piece of string? It's bollocks basically isn't it"