Select to expand quoteMatStirl said..RichardG said..tbwonder said..
Compared to this topic double as many posts on the LT one and 5 times as many in the topic reviewing the LT.
There is a good reason for that. People who foil spend there time foiling as it is so much fun. Perhaps if I had an LT instead I would find more time to post.
Testing your proposition seems to indicate you are likely wrong. Simply put, foiling has its own devoted section on this website, so it must have more prolific posters so not sure your statement is supported by fact. The LT posts are ,more concentrated on a few threads, so the appearance is amplified, so would doubt both the correctness of your statement and also that of the other person who you are responding to.
Number of posts is one way of comparing. Perhaps another is in number of competitors in races - about 100 entrants in upcoming LT nationals.
I reckon foiling looks fantastic but with kids I just don't have time for another form of windsurfing and no one races them in my patch. That might change in future. The main reason I got the LT is to race and cruise with kids. LT has its shortcomings - sailing it off the wind in a blow can be a little scary with no footstraps.
Suggest the only people that can truly compare foil v say LT are those few that have done and raced both over a few seasons.
Well I actually race both (as well as keelboats) albeit trying to get a constant foil race fleet here in WA is like herding cats.We have had one official race that I can recall.
in any case obviously they are 2 totally different animals to race on.
Wallys are a tactical craft where you tend to sail the shifts up wind and down.
Foils basically require you to bang corners...ie sail to the lay line and tack.
Wallys are far closer to dinghy sailing than foils.
Wallys are far fairer craft to sail being one design... weight divisions make racing even closer.
Foils are open slather and obviously weight as well as foil / board size make a huge difference.
I'm pretty light too snides at 70kg but still have never out pointed a keelboat, maybe to pinch over one but not long term for good vmg, maybe it's just me 
Racing foils is certainly quite different tactically, particularly upwind as you pay a large penalty for a tack, once you can foil gybe downwind there isn't a huge penalty. You have to be very forward thinking, you want to plan when and why you want to be somewhere and because they are so fast you have to plan early. Being able to mode correctly is a big thing too, much like the moths, you have to know exactly when to be high and slow or low and fast because the gains can be absolutely massive. Banging the corners is a thing for sure but many times in our NSW series last season I made huge gains by doing extra tacks and playing a shift, or rather playing the pressure. That's the big thing on a foil, you want the pressure, pressure = speed. You can be high and slow at upwind 16kts, get even a small knock but another 5 kts of pressure and you can be doing 20kts at the same angle....that is enormous.
Downwind can be even trickier, if you pick up a good gust at the top under a certain wind strength you can ride that all the way downwind, gybing to stay in it obviously and make absolutely massive gains. People who say there are no tactics in foil racing I don't think really appreciate all the nuances of it. Sure, you're not taking that 5 degree 15 second shift like on a wally, do they even do that...can't be easy to tack a plank, but there is more to it than 'banging the corners'.
Select to expand quote
Funny, that's different where I sail. Of the windsurfers who take out a longboard for fun, most of them have started foiling. One group that used to do longboard races a couple of times a year has switched almost entirely to foils.
...Anyway, he's the exception, against 10-15 "recreational longboarders" I know that have started foiling.
Thats interesting. Perhaps it is the lack of racing (other than formula) over the years in our area (until recently) that makes the longboard to foil conversions so different. Out of interest, are those long boarders who are now foiling still regularly sail longboards other than for racing?
I only know of 1 long boarder who foils and he is selling his longboard.
I'm not trying to heap any insults on long boarders but where I live I rarely (if ever) see any long boards on the water other than a rejuvenated niche group of keen LT/"whatever board you want to race" once a week fleet out of Toronto.
The uptake in Foiling has almost completely come from all areas of windsurfing other than long boarders.
Select to expand quoteBelly25 said..
Funny, that's different where I sail. Of the windsurfers who take out a longboard for fun, most of them have started foiling. One group that used to do longboard races a couple of times a year has switched almost entirely to foils.
...Anyway, he's the exception, against 10-15 "recreational longboarders" I know that have started foiling.
Thats interesting. Perhaps it is the lack of racing (other than formula) over the years in our area (until recently) that makes the longboard to foil conversions so different. Out of interest, are those long boarders who are now foiling still regularly sail longboards other than for racing?
I only know of 1 long boarder who foils and he is selling his longboard.
I'm not trying to heap any insults on long boarders but where I live I rarely (if ever) see any long boards on the water other than a rejuvenated niche group of keen LT/"whatever board you want to race" once a week fleet out of Toronto.
The uptake in Foiling has almost completely come from all areas of windsurfing other than long boarders.
The last paragraph is my point I suppose. LT might be more likely to get some newbies into our shrinking sport rather than foil etc. For that reason while I like the look of foiling I don't think it's the best thing to happen in the sport.
Where I sail, 3 sailors who still sail race boards etc have taken up foiling, the other folders in the area still sail short boards when able. When sailing the other day we had 5 windfoilers, 2 foiling A class cats and a foiling moth.Only 2 other yachts out.while it's great that the LT is getting good numbers at regattas how many attending are new sailors, not many I would bet
Select to expand quoteAUS 814 said..
Where I sail, 3 sailors who still sail race boards etc have taken up foiling, the other folders in the area still sail short boards when able. When sailing the other day we had 5 windfoilers, 2 foiling A class cats and a foiling moth.Only 2 other yachts out.while it's great that the LT is getting good numbers at regattas how many attending are new sailors, not many I would bet
AUS 814 good point about numbers at regattas. Since you called this up... Take a look at the LT nationals for Adelaide.....late January 2020: Amazing gangbusters numbers of entrants so far...its going to be huge...as we approach the regatta...wish I was going to be there...Good luck to all and especially best wishes for the WA crew attending ! Its interesting that out of the 108 entrants to date that there are 13 or more entrants, under 18 years of age, so far registered: theclubspot.com/regatta/uGjqsKWUWf?utm_source=seabreeze.com.au
Also there are 30 first timers....over 18...
Sorry to rain on the excellent foiling parade- it is a great discipline nevertheless and I like it and the feeling of flying no disrespect intended just wanted to get the right facts out there about the LT. What numbers do we have at the foil nationals so far ? How many are new sailors ?
f#*& moi, do we need yet another comment about how many boards you get at your regattas, regardless of whether someone has stirred the pot! I'm going to be honest here, I don't think 99% of people in this thread give a ****. The number of posts from 'team foil' coming into the LT thread and derailing useful discussion pales into comparison with you and that other muppet continually coming into this thread to sing the virtues of the LT.
I think it is awesome you get so many boards, it truly is exceptional and should lead to grown in this sport, hopefully even foiling, but your continual condescending questions RE foiling and our regattas in this and other threads are getting a bit too much.
Select to expand quoteCJW said..
f#*& moi, do we need yet another comment about how many boards you get at your regattas, regardless of whether someone has stirred the pot! I'm going to be honest here, I don't think 99% of people in this thread give a ****. The number of posts from 'team foil' coming into the LT thread and derailing useful discussion pales into comparison with you and that other muppet continually coming into this thread to sing the virtues of the LT.
I think it is awesome you get so many boards, it truly is exceptional and should lead to grown in this sport, hopefully even foiling, but your continual condescending questions RE foiling and our regattas in this and other threads are getting a bit too much.
Hey chill out and just relax man. Remember foilers started both threads you reference and some of whom continually attack the LT spreading mistruths and casting ill informed dispersions. It is necessary to correct these. Please just answer the questions and move on. We should all welcome controversy, debate and the search for truth and fact but we should try not to personally attack people on this thread. Foiling is great and so is the LT. It is all windsurfing.
Select to expand quoteAUS 814 said....while it's great that the LT is getting good numbers at regattas how many attending are new sailors, not many I would bet........AUS 814 said..Mistruths and I'll informed dispersions ???
Example of one above. Its interesting that out of the 108 entrants to date in the LT Nationals in SA that there are 13 or more entrants, under 18 years of age, so far registered.Also there are 30 first timers....over 18... You can send the carton of beer to Mounts Bay Sailing Club in Perth and the LT crew will consume them with the foilers at the club. Corona is fine.
Just a quick question, does anyone know how many have entered the LT Nationals in SA?
Are any under 18?
Are there any first timers ??
Do pimps on forums just trying to make money annoy the crap out of crew and it actually puts them off their product from the non stop dribble that never ends ??
Select to expand quoteRichardG said..CJW said..
f#*& moi, do we need yet another comment about how many boards you get at your regattas, regardless of whether someone has stirred the pot! I'm going to be honest here, I don't think 99% of people in this thread give a ****. The number of posts from 'team foil' coming into the LT thread and derailing useful discussion pales into comparison with you and that other muppet continually coming into this thread to sing the virtues of the LT.
I think it is awesome you get so many boards, it truly is exceptional and should lead to grown in this sport, hopefully even foiling, but your continual condescending questions RE foiling and our regattas in this and other threads are getting a bit too much.
Hey chill out and just relax man. Remember foilers started both threads you reference and some of whom continually attack the LT spreading mistruths and casting ill informed dispersions. It is necessary to correct these. Please just answer the questions and move on. We should all welcome controversy, debate and the search for truth and fact but we should try not to personally attack people on this thread. Foiling is great and so is the LT. It is all windsurfing.
Seriously mate what 'mis-truths' are people spreading about the LT? The only thing you can say is LT's are **** boring to sail....but that's purely only my personal opinion and as witnessed by your fleet numbers is not how many many others feel about them, end of story. I made comments early on in the Olympic thread about how I though it had no chance of becoming the Olympic class and outlined the reasons why. For good or bad it is not, end of story. But you repeatedly come into these threads, most particularly the thread purely dedicated to our national titles, offer nothing of substance and throw around condescending questions, like why is you fleet so small, yadda yadda yadda. You've said your piece RE the LT about 400 times in this thread already, we get it, I don't think at every single mention of it you need to come in and derail discussion again.....but whatever, as you were.
is foiling good for the long term good of windsurfing?
i think the many difficulties of windsurfing has always been bad for windsurfing as far as limiting applicability to the masses. various difficulties in every possible type of WS gear so far. difficult gear to deal with, difficulty in appropriate conditions, skills needed, general athleticism or strength,..
foiling provides partial solution to some of the issues and adds further difficult-ness in other aspects, but injects a newness and different-ness that appeals to many. it increases the ways in which WS can be experienced and may revitalize the interest of some windsurfers that are otherwise past their peak in learning new skills.
as far as the sport of windsurf and its future - if foiling is only a derivative of regular windsurfing and relies on drawing experienced windsurfers into the fold, it will result in a decreasing sense for the appeal of regular windsurf that wouldnt be good in the long run. but if it draws new people into the sport, it would be good for the long term future of foiling.
but are there 'new people', folks who have never windsurfed, that are drawn to a dream of foiling, but immediately face a disconnect when considering to buy gear and are directed to not-foiling gear such as WS LT or vague suggestion they should find some undefined old used gear that is so unappealing that it's not even produced anymore to 'learn on' with no clear timeline till they might experience their dream of flying above the water?
it's my feeling that it is a sort of Pandora's Box and hardly worth worrying about whether it should have been opened. the lid is open; enjoy the satisfaction of seeing what's inside :)
The German Surf magazine just had an interview with two Spanish foilers. One thing that stood out was the comments about the amount of interest and questions they get every time they come off the water from a foil session. I've seen the same thing from tourists at our beach - the level of interest from non-surfers is at least an order of magnitude higher than for long- or shortboarding.
Of course, the current windfoilers are generally active windsurfers. The interesting question is how things will develop over time. About 30-40 thousand Germans take a multi-day beginner windsurfing class each year, usually while on vacation, but only a very small percentage of them end up as active windsurfers. Will that change when they can also take beginner foil lessons? How much will the lower wind threshold help?
Why was kiting able to destroy Windsurfing as the dominant funsport on water?
-its easy to learn. Many guys who were never able to glide trough the jibe - were able to do that after 1 saison of kiting
-2-4 weeks and it looks like kiting // Windsurfing - how many saisons do you need for a decent niveau? 5 years?
-costs
-coolness factor
Will Windfoiling change this problem?
-with foiling we added additional difficulty to windsurfing ...
-we added huge additional costs ...
I'm hoping that windfoiling will bring new people to our watersport - but I doubt it (maybe sup-wingfoiling could do that better?).
Yes 35.ooo guys are doing the starter course in a german windsurf school every year ... but allmost all of them don't come back for the second or are buying own stuff.
For me - after 35 years windsurfing and >20 years slalom surfing - for me it's like learning to fly a slalomboard a second time - maybe better.
In Germany it's winter - 2 months more to wait ...
p.s. everytime when the LT Troll starts with his huge numbers of race participants in Australia will save Windsurfing - I have to laugh.
A forty year old board/sail stays a 40 years old concept. Do you want to give your new Porsche 911 GT3 RS back for a Volkswagen Beetle, because you drove it while you were in highschool with all these wunderful memories surrounding him?
We left WOD et cet. because they were boring compared to the first good funboards 30 years ago (e.g. Cobra Radical 290).
Select to expand quoteCJW said..RichardG said..CJW said..
f#*& moi, do we need yet another comment about how many boards you get at your regattas, regardless of whether someone has stirred the pot! I'm going to be honest here, I don't think 99% of people in this thread give a ****. The number of posts from 'team foil' coming into the LT thread and derailing useful discussion pales into comparison with you and that other muppet continually coming into this thread to sing the virtues of the LT.
I think it is awesome you get so many boards, it truly is exceptional and should lead to grown in this sport, hopefully even foiling, but your continual condescending questions RE foiling and our regattas in this and other threads are getting a bit too much.
Hey chill out and just relax man. Remember foilers started both threads you reference and some of whom continually attack the LT spreading mistruths and casting ill informed dispersions. It is necessary to correct these. Please just answer the questions and move on. We should all welcome controversy, debate and the search for truth and fact but we should try not to personally attack people on this thread. Foiling is great and so is the LT. It is all windsurfing.
Seriously mate what 'mis-truths' are people spreading about the LT? The only thing you can say is LT's are **** boring to sail....but that's purely only my personal opinion and as witnessed by your fleet numbers is not how many many others feel about them, end of story. I made comments early on in the Olympic thread about how I though it had no chance of becoming the Olympic class and outlined the reasons why. For good or bad it is not, end of story. But you repeatedly come into these threads, most particularly the thread purely dedicated to our national titles, offer nothing of substance and throw around condescending questions, like why is you fleet so small, yadda yadda yadda. You've said your piece RE the LT about 400 times in this thread already, we get it, I don't think at every single mention of it you need to come in and derail discussion again.....but whatever, as you were.
Bravo and well said
People keep saying huge additional costs but I disagree completely. Foiling has reduced my costs since I can use one boom, two masts and four sails from 12kts to 40kts. My foil cost less than a bigger mast and boom would, then you've got the extra sails and fins I don't need.
Perhaps race foiling is expensive but most people aren't racers.
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..
People keep saying huge additional costs but I disagree completely. Foiling has reduced my costs since I can use one boom, two masts and four sails from 12kts to 40kts. My foil cost less than a bigger mast and boom would, then you've got the extra sails and fins I don't need.
Perhaps race foiling is expensive but most people aren't racers.
100% agree.
Freeride foiling - cheap slalom board and stick-on foot straps in the correct position, second-hand 5.9m, 5m, 4m wave sails and you're good to go for a year or two. Get a decent proven foil - Slingshot comes to mind 
Select to expand quoteCJW said..RichardG said..CJW said..
f#*& moi, do we need yet another comment about how many boards you get at your regattas, regardless of whether someone has stirred the pot! I'm going to be honest here, I don't think 99% of people in this thread give a ****. The number of posts from 'team foil' coming into the LT thread and derailing useful discussion pales into comparison with you and that other muppet continually coming into this thread to sing the virtues of the LT.
I think it is awesome you get so many boards, it truly is exceptional and should lead to grown in this sport, hopefully even foiling, but your continual condescending questions RE foiling and our regattas in this and other threads are getting a bit too much.
Hey chill out and just relax man. Remember foilers started both threads you reference and some of whom continually attack the LT spreading mistruths and casting ill informed dispersions. It is necessary to correct these. Please just answer the questions and move on. We should all welcome controversy, debate and the search for truth and fact but we should try not to personally attack people on this thread. Foiling is great and so is the LT. It is all windsurfing.
Seriously mate what 'mis-truths' are people spreading about the LT? The only thing you can say is LT's are **** boring to sail....but that's purely only my personal opinion and as witnessed by your fleet numbers is not how many many others feel about them, end of story. I made comments early on in the Olympic thread about how I though it had no chance of becoming the Olympic class and outlined the reasons why. For good or bad it is not, end of story. But you repeatedly come into these threads, most particularly the thread purely dedicated to our national titles, offer nothing of substance and throw around condescending questions, like why is you fleet so small, yadda yadda yadda. You've said your piece RE the LT about 400 times in this thread already, we get it, I don't think at every single mention of it you need to come in and derail discussion again.....but whatever, as you were.
CJW good luck in the foil nationals and I hope it is a fantastic competition. I just checked and there are 16 entrants so far and that is a good field of great foilers in there , even one LT sailor (sans LT) and the whole fleet so far is something to be proud of. I do take issue with your other comments above and in particular deny your allegations. Also, in this thread I was simply asking a question following a comment from AUS814 and that should not attract the invective above. That said it is what it is.
Select to expand quoteAUS 814 said..
I would only send you a carton of VB
VB is fine. MBSC address on the website.
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..
People keep saying huge additional costs but I disagree completely. Foiling has reduced my costs since I can use one boom, two masts and four sails from 12kts to 40kts. My foil cost less than a bigger mast and boom would, then you've got the extra sails and fins I don't need.
Perhaps race foiling is expensive but most people aren't racers.
Windsurfing can be expensive. Maybe I'll go better on this? maybe I'll try one of those? The reality is your learning curve has topped out. Get on a new learning curve. It'll be years before you blame the equipment.
I'm new enough to windsurfing that my learning curve is still very steep.
The foil gear keeps me challenged and sails like my small gear. Formula and raceboards just didn't translate.
