Select to expand quotecammd said..Gestalt said..windsufering said..
There is a junior division in the cruiser class, also they have different wind limits.
most junior sailing classes have different fleets depending on skill level also.
not all yacht clubs put the racing course miles away from the club.
with over 100 boards at nationals there is so much going on, it's go go go go for the organisers.
having different size rigs available usually means they would choose the biggest one. Evident in the bic techno class and when the wind picks up a lot struggle. Making it a nightmare for the rescue craft.
what junior division in the cruiser class?
no disrespect Windsufering but you are really missing the point. as an example the smallest techno rig is 5.8m
So it's very clear what is being discussed here is not "Youth" we are putting the case forward for juniors. ie age 15 and under but ideally 13 and under. there are no windsurfing classes that consider that age group.
there are many sailing classes that do.
finally, with over 100 boards at the nationals how many were class racing under 13 years of age?
Did you enter your under 15 year old in any State or National Regatta, that would be a good place to start I would think. In my experience organisers do their level best to accomodate kids but if none turn what do you expect.
there is currently no class compliant junior rig for the LT.
Select to expand quoteChris 249 said..
A few years back, when my wife and I were running the association, we introduced the Junior One division. It allowed kids to use all sails under 4.5m (subject to the committee approval, to stop someone coming up with something that would give them an advantage). The kids raced in the morning, on a very short course in front of the club at the nationals, using a range of sails from about 1.5m to 4.5 metres. I think it was 2010 when we had 15 kids at the nationals, making up 24% of the entire fleet.
I think we had a division for 13 year olds and under as early as the 2008 (?) nationals, which was the first one to have a Junior division. We can easily require these younger kids to use very small sails, and allow any of them who want to use a bigger rig to race with the next group up. The Barracouta 3.5 never worked quite as well as the 4.5 but a rule allowing any approved rig under 3.5m could work well in the future. The idea for the younger kids, at least, is participation. The youngest kids can even just sail the downwind section of the course, but it gets them involved.
The Barracouta 4.5s were damn good sails, with one full batten and two leach battens just like the normal rig. In a breeze they were faster than a 6, as Jess Crisp (a major driver in getting kids sailing) showed by whipping everyone with one at one stage. They worked well for the older and better kids and were only something like 10% slower than the 5.7s overall, which is pretty good going. In light winds, the kids with 4.5s on One Designs could beat kids on theoretically faster boards in club racing (no names, no rivalry). All the good older kids used Barracouta sails, which were also good for teaching adults.
The better kids would race in the morning on their 4.5 with the Junior fleet, and then go out and race with the adults in the afternoon. In light winds, the good kids would use their 6m rigs when racing with the adults, and fly. In strong winds they could change down to their smaller sails and still race with the adults.
When my wife and I stopped running the class and the DAC juniors, Jess stopped running the Middle Harbour group and some kids aged out, it all sort of faded away. However, at the Worlds when I raised the issue of youth sailing, there was significant interest from the head honchos of various brands involved.
I'm now a grandfather rather than a father of windsurfers. I live inland in the country, I'm running the local sailing club and I'm not on the Windsurfer committee at the moment, but I'm willing to try to help to kick off a group to promote junior windsurfers. We had significant success 10 years ago at a time when the class was far weaker than it is now - we can make it something far bigger today.
I haven't used the current small sails but surely we can allow people to just whack short battens on with stickyback, to stop the leach vibrating. If the current small sails are not up to the job then if we get a group together we can lobby to have changes made.
If anyone is interested in getting a group together to foster junior sailing on LTs, please PM me so we can get something happening. If you don't want to get involved, please don't leave it to someone else but then complain. I'm not going to kick it off alone because I did that once and because of my location and lack of kids, I can't really claim to represent anyone these days.
So let's get on board now, while we can still arrange something for this season.
sounds great. so which sail? i'm thinking it is yet to be designed. look at the PWA kids wave events. kids on gear designed for kids ripping. 11 year olds doing forward loops.
the prolimit kids rig freedo suggested is pretty good but it's still a flattish sail and was designed as a beginners sail not a race sail. we have a get together coming up so we will test it on the LT. to date i've only seen it used on a one design,...
p.s. the one design is an excellent kids board. a few of those 2nd hand with prolimit rigs would be a very workable solution.
The "Aerotech" 4.0 and 4.5 are listed in the class rules as being approved rigs. The Barracouta sails would be "grandfathered" as they were approved by Windgenuity for the One Design, and there are still a few around. Other sails can be approved by allowing them in the Notice of Race for any series.
As you say, the light rigs like the Prolimit work really well for small or learning, but their very flat/twisted shape really limits the speed they can drive an LT/OD at in all conditions. In contrast, the Barracouta 4.5 was quicker than the 5.7 in strong winds, even when sailed by an adult mediumweight because its deep draft was more suited to a longboard.
In addition, the "modern" sails can be damn heavy in the bigger sizes. The 5.7m LT sail is 2.22kg with battens, on my scales. Plenty of the 3-4m "high tech" beginner sails weigh more than that. And if the kid is good enough and big enough to go for a 4.5m sail, then they can also normally use the standard LT mast and boom which saves hundreds of dollars over buying a complete kid's rig kit.
For these reasons, when we had the Junior class going, we recommended that kids who were younger or beginning use the various lightweight rigs of about 3m or less, with no preferred supplier. These were good at showing them the basics. Kids would then normally move to the 4.5s on the stock boom and mast, which could drive the OD along well and would allow the good kids to hang in with the adult's fleet.
It'd be interesting to put a good lightweight onto one of the Aerotech sails to see how fast they could get one going, so we can develop a baseline. And yes, the OD does work well for kids although I'm told some beginners prefer the LT's width and soft deck.
So, I'd reckon we can see if we can develop two basic divisions; one for any rig under 3.5 metres to cater for beginners and smaller kids using the ultra-light sails, and another using the standard 4m Aerotech sail or other approved sails. Any mast and boom could be used, to allow for the people who may have plenty of old stuff laying around and don't have the cash to spend hundreds on their kid's rig. We could allow parents to put two little leach battens (same as LT ones) on the Aerotech sails with stickyback if they suffer from leach flutter.
As we used to do, we can state that the committee has to approve any non-standard rig so if someone turns up with an ultra-light wishbone or something and other people feel it's unfair, we can get them to tie an old towel around the end to weigh it down, or use some similar way of ensuring that everything is fair. We'd just need to assess whether other 4m sails are faster than the Aerotech on a Windsurfer; I'd guess they were not because they tend to be heavy and flat.
The other simple way to deal with the issue is to say that any sail under 4.5m can be used in the race, but at championships the main prizes will only go to those with fully approved equipment. That puts the serious kids on a level playing field, but allows others to get involved by using whatever they have.
The normal courses for the Junior class are ultra-short, like slalom races, and are held before or after the main racing so that (1) we don't need more volunteers (2) parents can watch (3) kids get lots of different races and a chance to have a good one and (4) the better kids can race with the adults.
The emphasis for the Junior kids is on learning and low-hassle fun BUT making sure no one at the front of the fleet has a gear advantage. The LT class has the advantage that older kids who want to get serious - and some do - can be candidates for overall wins against former Olympians, as Jude, Hamish, Jude and Quinn proved by finishing 2,3 and 4 in the Lights at the nationals behind world champion and RSX champ Tim so the Junior class itself can be more about fun.
you've basically described the current situation chris which excludes kids from class racing. it's easy to throw around words about kids and sail sizes but what ages are you meaning because kids at 11 can loop wave boards but have no chance of using the 4m class sail.
sure we can all rock up with whatever sail we have. we are doing that currently. but its not match racing because the sails make a significant difference to who wins.
i'm out from here. i've had my say. clearly it's a minority view and that's fair enough.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
you've basically described the current situation chris which excludes kids from class racing. it's easy to throw around words about kids and sail sizes but what ages are you meaning because kids at 11 can loop wave boards but have no chance of using the 4m class sail.
sure we can all rock up with whatever sail we have. we are doing that currently. but its not match racing because the sails make a significant difference to who wins.
i'm out from here. i've had my say. clearly it's a minority view and that's fair enough.
I wasn't saying that. Kids can certainly sail in the class, although in practise they can't normally sail as fast as the adults. It's hard to see any way in which a typical 11 year old can finish alongside top adults in all conditions. A kid who can do forwards can't sail Jaws alongside the top adult wavesailors, a top 11 year old dinghy sailor can't sail alongside the top Laser sailors in all conditions. The power/drag ratio will always work against 11 year olds and therefore they can be encouraged by having their own events as well as sailing with the main fleet.
If you want to say there should be a single class-legal sail for kids under 11 then that's fine. Let's get together and work out a way to select one, with the class' approval. We can easily allow people to use any sail under a certain size, but say that only those who use a class sail can win. That allows some kids to just get in and have a go, but ensures that the sail can't make a difference amongst the winners. Surely we should not be saying that parents who already have a 3m sail can't let their kids use it at all in the Windsurfer class.
We could get together and try to get a better sail for under 11s designed. It's probably not that hard, just as it wasn't that hard to get the 4.5 designed.
I certainly have NOT just "thrown around words". I and a couple of other people put a ****load of time and effort into kids windsurfing and we got up to 15 of them to regattas. We also learned a lot about how to do it and just rejecting that experience out of hand is not necessarily the best approach.
Any kid that rocks up to a LT event in Vic that can't hold 4.5 sail can use what ever rig he wants
And he will not be excluded from any racing !
We will do whatever it takes to get him racing !
if he hasn't got a rig we would lend him one !
Select to expand quotewindsufering said..
Any kid that rocks up to a LT event in Vic that can't hold 4.5 sail can use what ever rig he wants
And he will not be excluded from any racing !
We will do whatever it takes to get him racing !
if he hasn't got a rig we would lend him one !
as is the case in qld and every other state... but that's not what is being framed here. the class is not open class.
so let me reframe the question.
should the windsurfer class develop a kids specific rig to enable one design racing and freestyle in the 8-13 age group.
so far the majority are saying no.
fair enough.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..windsufering said..
Any kid that rocks up to a LT event in Vic that can't hold 4.5 sail can use what ever rig he wants
And he will not be excluded from any racing !
We will do whatever it takes to get him racing !
if he hasn't got a rig we would lend him one !
as is the case in qld and every other state... but that's not what is being framed here. the class is not open class.
so let me reframe the question.
should the windsurfer class develop a kids specific rig to enable one design racing and freestyle in the 8-13 age group.
so far the majority are saying no.
fair enough.
Actually, I think the majority are saying "yes".
I'm for it, with the proviso that we don't suddenly say to kids with other rigs that they can't use the rigs they already own. I'm not going to tell my friend's kids, for example, that they can't sail LTs because their parents have already bought them rigs.
What we could do is form a group to work with the class' approval to determine what type of rig we want, after discussions with sailmakers. We'd need to work out what sailmakers we can deal with - some are tied up with competing brands. We could get them to come up with proposals, including design, pricing, bulk buy deals, etc.
Personally, given the very low strains an 11-13 year old is doing to put on sails and therefore the low stretch involved, I'd guess we could get just about the lightest rig ever made, fairly cheaply. Since closing the gap isn't important, we don't need a foot batten or a mid full-length batten, saving weight and cost. Perhaps we could specify a mast of untapered 6061-T6 alloy like some of the kids rigs use, which is very cheap - it could be one piece and just fit inside the current mast base, perhaps. We could then "grandfather" existing sails in over a set period in various ways.
low aspect with deep draft and alloy mast would be worth testing. also need to test that small sails work on the LT. i've not had a good experience there as the balance is not right but need to re test.
A Severne redback with more tunable draft would be interesting. it's very good once the wind increases for longboards and sails upwind with ease but doesn't create enough drive in light winds and looses out there.
or a windsurf version of the bic open skiff rig.
Yep, testing on the LT is important. One of the reason we can arguably steer clear of "normal" kids rigs is that the foot batten, loose leach and high aspect mean that their C of E is normally too far forward, even when raked aft.
I haven't seen the Severne The high wind control would be good, but in the Redback the 3.4 is actually a heavier sail than the LT's 5.7. As another comparison, the world's most popular class is allegedly the Laser Radial which is 5.7m and weighs just 1.85kg complete with battens. I can pick up my Barracouta 3.5 in a while and see what it weighs, but I wouldn't be surprised if we could get a dacron 3m with one full batten and two leach battens (ie looking just like Mum and Dad's LT sail) weighing in under 1.5 kg which is lighter than a typical kid's 2m with full battens. The price can be correspondingly low and the whole kit could be very easy to use.
As you can tell, I'm very unsure about whether the kids rigs need more than one full batten. Deeper sails react differently to full battens, as does something like the LT that just doesn't reach the speeds of a shortboard. We could still make something that looks cool enough, although the absence of cool sails doesn't stop most sailing kids opting for Optis and Lasers. Cambers and monofilm were around before their parents were born, so to an 11 year old they are stone age tech and colourful dacron has its own appeal.
I think I was wrong to say that the 4.5 was 10% slower than a 5.7; in the right hands I think it's more like 5%.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..windsufering said..
There is a junior division in the cruiser class, also they have different wind limits.
most junior sailing classes have different fleets depending on skill level also.
not all yacht clubs put the racing course miles away from the club.
with over 100 boards at nationals there is so much going on, it's go go go go for the organisers.
having different size rigs available usually means they would choose the biggest one. Evident in the bic techno class and when the wind picks up a lot struggle. Making it a nightmare for the rescue craft.
what junior division in the cruiser class?
no disrespect Windsufering but you are really missing the point. as an example the smallest techno rig is 5.8m
So it's very clear what is being discussed here is not "Youth" we are putting the case forward for juniors. ie age 15 and under but ideally 13 and under. there are no windsurfing classes that consider that age group.
there are many sailing classes that do.
finally, with over 100 boards at the nationals how many were class racing under 13 years of age?
Which sailing classes do ?
Just curious
Select to expand quotewindsufering said..Gestalt said..windsufering said..
There is a junior division in the cruiser class, also they have different wind limits.
most junior sailing classes have different fleets depending on skill level also.
not all yacht clubs put the racing course miles away from the club.
with over 100 boards at nationals there is so much going on, it's go go go go for the organisers.
having different size rigs available usually means they would choose the biggest one. Evident in the bic techno class and when the wind picks up a lot struggle. Making it a nightmare for the rescue craft.
what junior division in the cruiser class?
no disrespect Windsufering but you are really missing the point. as an example the smallest techno rig is 5.8m
So it's very clear what is being discussed here is not "Youth" we are putting the case forward for juniors. ie age 15 and under but ideally 13 and under. there are no windsurfing classes that consider that age group.
there are many sailing classes that do.
finally, with over 100 boards at the nationals how many were class racing under 13 years of age?
Which sailing classes do ?
Just curious
Tera , open bic and laser are the ones I'm aware of.
I'm sure there are more.
Open bic is under 16 one sail, and you are arrange in gold silver bronze fleet depending on your skill
laser junior fleet is under 17 one size sail also
rs Tera gold silver bronze also two sails a fully battened one and a beginners one which you can reef !
Good luck with your idea !
Btw our junior fleet is going well even during this covid thing
we are attracting kids from the opti class ,minows and 420 classes
cheers
Select to expand quotewindsufering said..
Open bic is under 16 one sail, and you are arrange in gold silver bronze fleet depending on your skill
laser junior fleet is under 17 one size sail also
rs Tera gold silver bronze also two sails a fully battened one and a beginners one which you can reef !
Good luck with your idea !
Btw our junior fleet is going well even during this covid thing
we are attracting kids from the opti class ,minows and 420 classes
cheers
open bic comes with a 4.5m or 3.8m sail and is designed for 30-65kg sailors. so kids...
Rs tera comes in 2 versions. the sport and the pro. the sport is aimed at kids who also reef the sail down.
the laser has a laser pico and laser 4.7 which are both aimed at kids.
all of those classes are aimed at kids and the boats designed for kids and you know that. so lets not represent it any other way
all of those classes are used at sailing clubs for kids.
where's the kids racing LT's on one design rigs. They aren't. there is no class rig for kids. i've asked. many times. so have others. the LT is aimed at adults and only manages to allow teenages because the 4.5m school rigs existed.
no skin off my nose really. don;t change anything. everything is perfect. your right and everyone else is wrong.
Select to expand quotewindsufering said..
I don't think you can give race points for under 13 competition
my local sailing club is mainly used by kids. it caters for kids with the boats i mentioned above. not sure they are aware of your over 13's only rule...
probably because they can think outside the box and usually do and are full of great ideas.
Select to expand quoteChris 249 said..
Yep, testing on the LT is important. One of the reason we can arguably steer clear of "normal" kids rigs is that the foot batten, loose leach and high aspect mean that their C of E is normally too far forward, even when raked aft.
I haven't seen the Severne The high wind control would be good, but in the Redback the 3.4 is actually a heavier sail than the LT's 5.7. As another comparison, the world's most popular class is allegedly the Laser Radial which is 5.7m and weighs just 1.85kg complete with battens. I can pick up my Barracouta 3.5 in a while and see what it weighs, but I wouldn't be surprised if we could get a dacron 3m with one full batten and two leach battens (ie looking just like Mum and Dad's LT sail) weighing in under 1.5 kg which is lighter than a typical kid's 2m with full battens. The price can be correspondingly low and the whole kit could be very easy to use.
As you can tell, I'm very unsure about whether the kids rigs need more than one full batten. Deeper sails react differently to full battens, as does something like the LT that just doesn't reach the speeds of a shortboard. We could still make something that looks cool enough, although the absence of cool sails doesn't stop most sailing kids opting for Optis and Lasers. Cambers and monofilm were around before their parents were born, so to an 11 year old they are stone age tech and colourful dacron has its own appeal.
I think I was wrong to say that the 4.5 was 10% slower than a 5.7; in the right hands I think it's more like 5%.
not sure it's apples with apples comparing the redback to the wally rig... the wally sail might be a few grams lighter but the overal rig is vastly heavier than the redback both in weight and feel.
the redback is the benchmark rig for kids windsurfing.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..Chris 249 said..
not sure it's apples with apples comparing the redback to the wally rig... the wally sail might be a few grams lighter but the overal rig is vastly heavier than the redback both in weight and feel.
the redback is the benchmark rig for kids windsurfing.
The 3.5-4.5 Wally sail on a Wally mast and boom would be heavier, which is why we've always encouraged smaller kids to sail with lighter rigs. But the lighter rigs appear to have a definite speed limit when it comes to driving a longboard. We've swapped kids over from the ultra-light rigs to the 4.5s plenty of times. In fact in our experience swapping them back and forwards is a good idea.
The flat, open leach fully battened kids rigs just don't generate enough drive to get an LT or OD going well, and as you noticed their centre of effort also doesn't match the LT very well. So I was talking about building a lighter rig than the Redback for the under 13s - one more aligned to longboards. We know that Raceboards don't use FW or slalom sails and for the same reasons kids on LTs or ODs would be better off with special sails. There may be a "benchmark rig for adults windsurfing" but that doesn't mean it's going to be any good on an LT. In the same way, the benchmark rig for kid's windsurfing is very unlikely to be all that good on an LT.
With a simpler, cheaper, more powerful kids rig set on a 6061-T6 untapered mast we could create a rig that is lighter, cheaper and more powerful than the Redback and with a C of E more suited to the LT.
Since you mentioned the Bic O'pen rig earlier, it's reasonable to mention that there are lots of kids who move from Bics to Laser 4.7s very happily. The 4.7's rig is a simple dacron triangle but the boat is much faster than the Bic. It's a pretty good demonstration that when it comes to kids rigs for all-wind sailing then full battens and fatheads are not necessarily better.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..windsufering said..
I don't think you can give race points for under 13 competition
my local sailing club is mainly used by kids. it caters for kids with the boats i mentioned above. not sure they are aware of your over 13's only rule...
probably because they can think outside the box and usually do and are full of great ideas.Select to expand quoteGestalt said..windsufering said..
I don't think you can give race points for under 13 competition
my local sailing club is mainly used by kids. it caters for kids with the boats i mentioned above. not sure they are aware of your over 13's only rule...
probably because they can think outside the box and usually do and are full of great ideas.
Your club has a under 13 division ?
Select to expand quotewindsufering said..
I don't think you can give race points for under 13 competition
I think we did in Junior One Designs at the nationals at Batemans Bay and Port Stephens. One of the kids who won the prize is still a dead keen sailor although more in boats. The other has her own kids now and wants to bring them up sailing and windsurfing.
Select to expand quoteChris 249 said..windsufering said..
I don't think you can give race points for under 13 competition
I think we did in Junior One Designs at the nationals at Batemans Bay and Port Stephens. One of the kids who won the prize is still a dead keen sailor although more in boats. The other has her own kids now and wants to bring them up sailing and windsurfing.
You probably find now days they don't have set age groups for kids, it's done now based on skill,gold,silver, bronze or colours yellow or green ! .
What is an LT? Been in windsurfing all my life and never heard of the term until this post...
Select to expand quotegmitton said..
What is an LT? Been in windsurfing all my life and never heard of the term until this post...
It's a reincarnation of the Windsurfer OD, however it's made from epoxy and lighter but more fragile, slightly wider and more volume. It's powered by a 5.7 Dacron triangular sail with short leach battons. It's supporters hope it will bring back the halcyon days of OD course racing of the 70s and early 80s.
Select to expand quotegmitton said..
What is an LT? Been in windsurfing all my life and never heard of the term until this post...
This video which might interest you more, but does mention the promise of the LT, explains the IWT positioning as the best fit for this part of the world. The PWA is great but works off a different more expensive business model and for a limited elite group. The IWT idea for surf slalom is a great idea. Also note: the recognition for the power of the Windsurfer LT in developing grass roots; the sailing club as the engine room of growth; the brilliance and lightness of Ezzy sails; the relevance of surf culture in Australia; why windsurfing is bigger in Europe than in Australia, the fallout of Bernd v. Naish; the new Naish team; the local wave sailors of NSW and elsewhere in Australia who would likely be threats in a competition held at their local breaks; and much more.
The LT is not designed for the kids or juniors, they cant even carry a beast like that from off the boat trailer 10m to the water by themselves let alone carry one walking to the beach or on their bike or bus.
I guess thats why all the young ins are all now going towards the windsurfing evolution of windwinging, which is more aimed about having fun on the water, instead of the old sailing club competitions and racing style the last generation seemed to think was the main attraction.
Select to expand quotelotofwind said..
The LT is not designed for the kids or juniors, they cant even carry a beast like that from off the boat trailer 10m to the water by themselves let alone carry one walking to the beach or on their bike or bus.
I guess thats why all the young ins are all now going towards the windsurfing evolution of windwinging, which is more aimed about having fun on the water, instead of the old sailing club competitions and racing style the last generation seemed to think was the main attraction.
The LT is lighter than many kids boats eg Optimist, Open Bic and only 2 kg heavier than a Bic Techno, with much more volume and with a much lighter rig. Your comments make no sense. Well those young ones you reference won't be kitesurfing for sure or at least would be unlikely to embrace kiting. "There are over 110 reported kitesurfing deaths in the last 10 years.." actually sadly many more since this quote from a letter to US Sailing by Nevin Sayre, top world cup windsurfer and kiter in 2012. Nevin also went on to say: "That should be compared with an excellent safety record in windsurfing's 40 year history. I am personally very lucky not to be on the fatality list, and suffered a head wound with 150 stitches from kitesurfing. And I consider myself a decent kiter, and knowledgeable about the wind. There is no way I would allow my kids to kitesurf." Windwing yes it has its place, windsurfing yes probably can't be beat and the LT is neat, kiting no & never say kiting ever !
Select to expand quote^^^^ I hope you are right and lots of kids dont start kiting, the less kiters or polers on the water the better I reckon.
As for the dangers, there are waaaay more sailing deaths than kiting deaths. Not sure why you keep comparing it to kiting though as they are totally different, ones sailing the others more wakeboarding/surfing.
110 kiters in 10 years world wide compared to 271 sailors in 10 years in just the USA alone let alone the rest of the world
WOW, you sailors are a risky dangerous bunch
lol
Get your kids into football, way less deaths and safer than sailing.
More Deaths from Sailing than Football >>
www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2016/04/04/study-finds-more-deaths...
4/4/2016 ? During the 11-year study period, 271 deaths were related to sailing versus the 197 incidents of American football players who died during play or practice.
Select to expand quotelotofwind said..
The LT is not designed for the kids or juniors, they cant even carry a beast like that from off the boat trailer 10m to the water by themselves let alone carry one walking to the beach or on their bike or bus.
I guess thats why all the young ins are all now going towards the windsurfing evolution of windwinging, which is more aimed about having fun on the water, instead of the old sailing club competitions and racing style the last generation seemed to think was the main attraction.
This lotowind fella might be a **** stirer but he is actually quite observent and seems to know what's going on.
