Site is up on Wingsails

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John340 said..
Lots of unsubstantiated claims of superior product. No independent comparative testing available. Good marketing advice not being heeded.

I'm done too.

Sure, you say that, but in 4 weeks time, on page 18, I reckon you will comment again. Probably exactly the same comment as above ^^^ nothing will have changed.

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gorgesailor said..
The reason people in the US don't seem to like race sails ... is that they are heavier, more expensive, & more complicated to rig & tune compared to say freeride or wave sails. They are willing to sacrifice ultimate performance for simplicity. Why would an average sailor want to use a bigger sail than they have to? If a performance oriented sailor can truly use a smaller sail to get more power, speed etc.. then THAT is your market.

Well said. Heavier, more expensive, and more complicated to rig .. all applies to MWsails. So he'll face an uphill battle.

Who does not care much about heavier, more expensive, difficult to rig and tune? Racers and speed surfers. A group MWsails says he does not target.

Tesla faced a similar marketing problem: an unproven product that was quite expensive. His first car was directed at a group who did not care about the price, and wanted performance and "something cool". These initial, well-targeted sales allowed him to reach economies of scale, which in turn enabled cheaper electric cars with fewer issues (proven technology, more charging stations, faster charging).

Right now, MWsails looks like possibly cool technology that will die from bad marketing, joining thousands of "better mouse traps".

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seanhogan said..
MW, Really think you should promote your wingsail on german and french forums, more experts over there !

Those bloody aussies on here can't recognize a true proven revolutionary product whan they (don't) see one !!!

yes I know, I've got that picture. You absolutely right. I just don't speak French or German, have no Idea where these forums are. I have seen discussion on Dutch forum. Totally different atmosphere there. It is really disappointing Australian reaction, but than again my critics is just few grumpy , opinionated close minded Australian dudes. I can't really form my opinion based on their senseless judgement . I got many emails to info@mwsails from American and European guys thanking me for innovation and my contribution to windsurfing sport . Also we have in mind and got verbal agreement with couple European athletes who want to participate I think as ambassadors. We not hire anyone, whey want to participate and I can see that they totally understand technical issues in my innovation. Unlike its in here . But now its harsh winter. So wait until April. Still it's not written in stone, but at least motion is there. Now I can only inform my camarados in sport about existence of the product and its initial properties. If someone who understand what is it and don't need others to tell them " its good" , these guys can buy sail online . Strangely we sold few sails in US right before the winter, I hope its gonna be more. Thanks god my well been not depend on sail making so I can spend some time educating public about my product and just relax and observe.

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Mastbender said..
MWsails: "It is really disappointing Australian reaction, but than again my critics is just a few grumpy, opinionated close minded Australian dudes."
MWsails: "Thanks god my well been not depend on sail making so I can spend some time educating public about my product and just relax and observe."

Really, I'm just a rich guy that doesn't really need to be here.
Great attitude you have there, yes, you do need "ambassadors" because you plainly aren't one yourself.
You are an insulting killer of your own product.

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Mastbender said..
MWsails: "It is really disappointing Australian reaction, but than again my critics is just a few grumpy, opinionated close minded Australian dudes."
MWsails: "Thanks god my well been not depend on sail making so I can spend some time educating public about my product and just relax and observe."

Really, I'm just a rich guy that doesn't really need to be here.
Great attitude you have there, yes, you do need "ambassadors" because you plainly aren't one yourself.
You are an insulting killer of your own product.

I'm not a rich guy, I just have other business to support me. Isn't it funny how you pervert of what I just said?

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Mastbender said..
MWsails: "It is really disappointing Australian reaction, but than again my critics is just a few grumpy, opinionated close minded Australian dudes."
MWsails: "Thanks god my well been not depend on sail making so I can spend some time educating public about my product and just relax and observe."

Really, I'm just a rich guy that doesn't really need to be here.
Great attitude you have there, yes, you do need "ambassadors" because you plainly aren't one yourself.
You are an insulting killer of your own product.

hey MW --> you're losing us - even those who were interested
(and not living far from NJ)
time for action and NOT words !!

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MWsails said..

mathew said..
My $0.0001....

I cannot hang on to a bedsheet in the recommended windspeeds, curved foil or not...
Is there some benefit of a flat-windward-surface, which allows me to control the sail-area ?

Yes. Read cfd blog on mwsails.com it will be posted every week.

I read it. It looks like total bull**** to me. Pretty pictures from basic CFD and no understanding of the underlying aerodynamics.

Your continued insistence that the 2010, 2013 and 2017 America's Cup cats used symmetrical wings is frustrating, they used multi-element wings made up of symmetrical components that could be angled relative to one another to achieve high camber, high lift coefficients and large amounts of twist. The fact that you don't understand this is mind boggling, and your belief that you could out-design some of the worlds top aerodynamicists when they have had budgets totalling hundreds of millions of dollars over three AC cycles is delusional.

You are aware that these boats do over 30 knots upwind and over 49 knots downwind aren't you? They are far and away the most efficient sailing boats ever built, yet you think their designers are idiots.

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gorgesailor said..

MWsails said..

flowmaster said..
I don't know how things in Australia but in Europe and USA race sails not really popular. I had 2 of them , give it away for free. Don't tell me how great they are because you have no idea what you are talking about.


It's this kind of false propaganda what you should never ever do in trying to find a market for your own product.
I live in europe, and race sails are hot, just take a look arround and you'l get the picture. (so false)
For you to give away two sails doesn't mean race sails are no good, I can figure out a lot off reasons what can go wrong if youre cleuless . (so false)
My loft sails are great , but ..... I have no idea what I'm talking about, started windsurfing at 13, now I'm 54, did a hell of a lot of competitions mostly race sails . (Youre pissing me off.)

I'm in contact with quite a few European distributors and they say that race sail market in Europe is very very small. They don't stock race sails , only pre order , despite relatively hi merging , all because public don't have much interest in them. Try to buy race sail in US, same thing pre order. Walk in the store in popular spot in USA , nothing, not even one. On my bay I see one or two sometimes, out of 20. Traveling to windsurfing destination, don't see them at all . Don't know about tropics with rental fleet. But let me guess, nothing. I'm sorry that you got pissed off, but this time ,you have to just suck it in my friend. And it is not propaganda , this is reality. I have nothing against race sails, they are great! It just many downsides that people don't like. My personal concern is when that pocket get filled with water in the deep with waves crashing, you need a pro to handle it. For average joe, like myself, race sail wasn't good choice. My almost new , old race sails I tried to sell $100 each, nothing,not even a nibble. So I gave away for free to local windsurfing school. Gave away my old "new"race sails and one look like new regular 4.5. cause for me there is no use for it. Now, since I use wingsail, every time I go sailing , I have one sail, one boom , one mast and two boards in my car, don't need more. Oh yeah compare to my wingsail, if there is a good wind like 20-25 kt. race sails sucks.

You're doing it again. Also the only customers who care about CFD analysis are the ones who are most critical. They are not YOUR customers. YOUR customers want positive not negative - & not claims either. They are happy with their sails because they are mostly good sails. You need to concentrate on your sails strengths not try to put down other gear which really has no merit. Regarding your old Race sails, you are right Race sails are a tricky market & used ones even more so. Used gear in general has very little resale because new gear is so much better. My 4.3 rig weighs less than 15lbs complete(3 batten Technora laminate/100% carbon mast/carbon extension/carbon boom). Compared to my favorite 4.2 rig from 2010 it weighs almost half & is better in every way. Try to sell your CAD workstation from 2010 - you won't be able to give it away.

I really don't care about race sails market. It just someone brought it up , I post my opinion and well known facts and it just inflate from there. In my past from early childhood I've built planes, service military aircraft , flew small Cessna in USA , (have cool youtube video to prove it.) So when some dude come around with aerodynamic noun sense , I tempt to slap him around a bit. I admit, Guilty! My CFD blog not only to educate people about wingsail but also built better understanding of what is going on around existing gear. In my opinion it is a good contribution to our sport. I'm not saying that existing sail is bad, what I say that wingsail will take you farther, much farther. Not everyone absolutely need to have wing, but those who get it will instantly improve. So level of aggression that I've got here in not justified at all. By the way , my CFD blog generate good positive response. And Critics, what critics? They are only here hiding behind names, no critics on Facebook or Instagram. You know in reality they don't want to wear that face. I update my CFD blog every Friday, where wing and curved plate will be compared side by side with different angle of attack applicable to real conditions.

This topic is like a train wreck, you shouldn't look but just can't help yourself. I keep coming back to see what outrageous claims MW has posted. I still think he's trolling us and is desperate for attention or a sucker for punishment. If flying a Cessna 150 makes you an expert aerodynamicist then those of us that have flown bigger things should probably qualify as rocket scientists! I reckon Pacey has more knowledge and experience of sail design that all of us put together so I tend to go with his analysis, he created the software most sail/boat designers use after all. Here's some of his background that MW may learn a bit from: www.cupinfo.com/en/americas-cup-automated-yacht-design-optimization.php

MW needs to rename his sail so it better represents what it does, RAW may be a better moniker, as in Rotating Assymetrical Wing. From an aero point of view he has missed a few rudimentary points. All the wings from planes/animals he mentions don't have a flat section on the opposite side to the cambered section, they have less cambered foil shape. Flat has it's own problems including flow separation and leading edge stall that is induced by large angles of attack, more easily than if the surface was curved.

CFD simulations are great but only if used in conjunction with some type of aero testing. Normally you would take what you developed and simulated in CFD and put it in a wind tunnel to validate your results. If that correlated correctly you then do real world testing to make sure the numbers do match and are correct. So far all we see is pretty CFD pictures and nothing else. If people are willing to buy a sail based on those then good luck to them.

As I said in a previous post I would be happy to conduct side by side testing of the MW sail with our current sails. I'd even provide a written report and gps test data to back it up. I'm not not part of the windsurfing industry or a pro sailor but have extensive test experience ( and know how to go fast) so can be impartial in the whole process. Ball is in your court MW.

Roo, brilliant link. I'm humbled to be in the same internet conversation as someone so accomplished. I can't even imagine how much he's biting his tongue in having to say things such as: "I'm not so sure. I already have a little bit of experience in this field." If I were designing anything - even two legos stuck together - and he bothered to offer me two minutes of his time, I'd take it graciously and appreciatively. Mad respect.

I found this part particularly apt:

Q: The hard wing sail has been described by designers as easier to analyse a given wing shape using CFD because the foil shape is a fixed surface, unlike the surface of a soft sail which is shaped by the airflow passing over it. How does the genetic metamodeling of a wing sail lend itself to being adapted for analysis similar to what VESPA did for the ACC hulls?

A: The use of metamodels and genetic algorithms for design search and optimization has been widely used in the aerospace industry for wing planform design, aerofoil profile design, and the design of high-lift, multi-element aerofoils. So the methodology is directly applicable to the design of wings for the AC72. The difference is that aerospace designers are not necessarily familiar with having to design for wind gradient and how it results in variations in angles of attack at different spanwise locations, nor are they familiar with the use of a VPP linked to a probabilistic tournament model to determine the measure of merit for a particular wing design.

(I think I know what some of those words mean )

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MWsails said..

seanhogan said..
MW, Really think you should promote your wingsail on german and french forums, more experts over there !

Those bloody aussies on here can't recognize a true proven revolutionary product whan they (don't) see one !!!

yes I know, I've got that picture. You absolutely right. I just don't speak French or German, have no Idea where these forums are. I have seen discussion on Dutch forum. Totally different atmosphere there. It is really disappointing Australian reaction, but than again my critics is just few grumpy , opinionated close minded Australian dudes. I can't really form my opinion based on their senseless judgement . I got many emails to info@mwsails from American and European guys thanking me for innovation and my contribution to windsurfing sport . Also we have in mind and got verbal agreement with couple European athletes who want to participate I think as ambassadors. We not hire anyone, whey want to participate and I can see that they totally understand technical issues in my innovation. Unlike its in here . But now its harsh winter. So wait until April. Still it's not written in stone, but at least motion is there. Now I can only inform my camarados in sport about existence of the product and its initial properties. If someone who understand what is it and don't need others to tell them " its good" , these guys can buy sail online . Strangely we sold few sails in US right before the winter, I hope its gonna be more. Thanks god my well been not depend on sail making so I can spend some time educating public about my product and just relax and observe.

Gees ... really no the problem is the Australians? You received exactly the same reception (if not worse) on the u.s. iwindsurf forum. And how can it be different? You hassle, if not straight on insult, anybody who dares wandering about your extravagant claims ... not to mention when the people who know something about sails show up and things get a bit surreal ...

Good luck with French, German and Dutch! But if you do post there change attitude! You won't sell much if you keep this way!!!!!!

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Ian K said..

Always been curious Pacey. Can we tap into $100m of research? What is the primary reason sail designers put twist in sails? To allow for the apparent wind angle changing with height? Don't want too much leverage at the top? A byproduct of flex? Or just to tidy up the tip aerodynamics?

And how do the CFD models generate the turbulence of the incoming wind? How sensitive ( if at all ) is the optimum design to different turbulence regimes?

No expensive research involved here as I've never seen good CFD of windsurfer sails at the correct angles/wind velocities. That's not to say it hasn't been done, it's just not something I've researched in depth.

My personal opinions are below, but there are lots of people who have far more knowledge in this area than me so I'm open to being corrected on any of these points.

1. Wind shear: This refers to both wind strength and direction, both of which can vary significantly as you go up from water level. On big yachts with very tall masts it is not unheard of for the wind direction aloft to be different enough from the direction lower down that the top of the mainsail is on the opposite tack. Fortunately we don't operate in that degree of wind shear, but there can still be differences in windspeed near water level compared to the top of a windsurfer mast. When you are under way, this has the effect of changing the direction of the apparent wind as you move up, meaning that the sail needs to be twisted off as you go up the sail to have the same angle of attack.

2. Heeling moment: when a sail is overpowered it makes sense to depower the highest part first to reduce the overall heeling moment. This is particularly true with windsurfers, as we are very much heeling moment limited. It's why tall/heavy sailors/weight jackets have an advantage when it is windy, yet light boards are faster - they all improve righting moment by moving the center of gravity of the system further outboard. Moving the center of effort of the rig further inboard in a gust, either by sheeting out slightly so that the twisted head of the sail feathers first, or by the leech deflecting into a more twisted shape, is also advantageous.

3. Stability: Most aircraft use washout (twist) at the wingtips to ensure that the wingtips are the last part of the wing to stall. If this wasn't the case, one wingtip would stall first and the aircraft would enter a spin. Similarly, if the head of a windsurfing sail stalls first in a lull, it will be harder to sheet in and get our bodyweight back over the board. If the head stays unstalled as we sheet in there is more time to recover from a sudden reduction in windstrength.

4. Improved lift distribution: If the head of the sail is too narrow the sail will be too heavily loaded at the tip resulting in more drag, so twisting the sail is important to get a more optimal lift distribution and minimum drag. I doubt that this is much of an issue with modern sails as they tend to be fairly wide at the head, but was an issue back in the days of sails with narrow or pointed heads.

Regarding your last question, CFD and turbulence modelling, it's really easy, you just have to solve the Navier-Stokes equations and you're done! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Prize_Problems

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Pacey said..

3. Stability: Most aircraft use washout (twist) at the wingtips to ensure that the wingtips are the last part of the wing to stall. If this wasn't the case, one wingtip would stall first and the aircraft would enter a spin. Similarly, if the head of a windsurfing sail stalls first in a lull, it will be harder to sheet in and get our bodyweight back over the board. If the head stays unstalled as we sheet in there is more time to recover from a sudden reduction in windstrength.

Of course! If the top is under sheeted, when you sheet in for the lull it's now operating optimally, right where the leverage is greatest. Very hard to fall in backwards.




"On big yachts with very tall masts it is not unheard of for the wind direction aloft to be different enough from the direction lower down that the top of the mainsail is on the opposite tack."


Is this just every now and then when a large eddy goes by or can it be like that for minutes at a time?

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MWsails said..Sail that we produce, is more than just replacement for entire quiver. This is one step forward, radical game changer. Imagine that average sailor now would be able safely achieve much higher speeds, refine and progress in skills, sail in conditions previously considered as "survival" .

And we do have to imagine as you haven't proven it.

Oops I said I was out. Who used the train wreck analogy for this thread?

I think this should be discussed more

Imagine if MWsails don't actually exist and they were made up from an autobot high on chemtrails giving us something to do over Christmas ,
Petermac33 what did u do ?