review from facebook armie page :
HA780 v2 Review
Perspective: The HA925 has been my daily driver and favorite foil for winging for the past 3 seasons. Until yesterday.
I rode the new HA780 (60cm fuse, HP935 mast, Surf 205 tail, blue shim, 70L Wing FG board) yesterday and was blown away. From the first pump of the wing (XPS 4.6 and 3.5), I could tell this was a magic foil.
Background: I'm a 60 year old medium-advanced winger, (jibes & tacks both sides, handle-pass tacks, lots of swell riding in knee to waist high rolling bay swell.) 77KG/170lbs, dry. Full Disclosure: I don't get paid to post positive reviews. Here are my take-aways:
Review: This wing foils with what feels like no forward speed. The HA780 comes out of the water in a predictable and linear way.
This foil is a skateboard. It's the first foil I've ever ridden which feels like you could crank a waterski-type bottom turn and really push against the foil.
The stall speed is unbelievable. I could almost pivot a tack at zero MPH and the foil didn't drop out. It's like the thing has a power source of its own.
Speed wise, the HA780 isn't quite as fast as the HA925 and probably doesn't glide as well. It's close, but the trade-off for turning and non-existent stall speed is a game changer, particularly in dicey conditions where the wind might drop and you'd need to get back to the launch without coming off foil. It's making me reconsider my foil quiver and what my light-wind foil will be. I swear the HA780 had similar stall speed as my HS1850!
If you're an HA925 lover and curious about the new HA foils, get on one. The HA780 blew my mind yesterday.
There's definitely some Armie Armstrong sorcery here!
.....,,..
and also some prone footage riding with JW
Select to expand quoteCamarillo said..
Yesterday I used it again in much stronger wind 25 knots gusting over 30 knots with an Armstrong XPS 3.0
The 880 was clearly too big for the conditions, it was ok after I changed to an XPS 2.6 and moved the 880 1.5 cm back in the tracks but not the magic of the day before...
I've felt similarly over-foiled with the 880 in those conditions (25-30 knot, lit on a 3 XPS). I can't wait to try the 680 in similar conditions - this weekend looks promising with swell and wind up to 30 knots predicted.
Another reason why I've positioned the 880 as my light wind foil. E.g. yesterday we had 10 - 15 knots and I spent three hours on the 880/180/795/60 with a 5.4 XPS. It's so good in those conditions.
Just got word HA580 should arrive tomorrow. Forecasts for big surf and lots of wind this weekend! 
Just got word HA580 should arrive tomorrow. Forecasts for big surf and lots of wind this weekend!
Select to expand quoteArthurAlston said..Camarillo said..
Yesterday I used it again in much stronger wind 25 knots gusting over 30 knots with an Armstrong XPS 3.0
The 880 was clearly too big for the conditions, it was ok after I changed to an XPS 2.6 and moved the 880 1.5 cm back in the tracks but not the magic of the day before...
I've felt similarly over-foiled with the 880 in those conditions (25-30 knot, lit on a 3 XPS). I can't wait to try the 680 in similar conditions - this weekend looks promising with swell and wind up to 30 knots predicted.
Another reason why I've positioned the 880 as my light wind foil. E.g. yesterday we had 10 - 15 knots and I spent three hours on the 880/180/795/60 with a 5.4 XPS. It's so good in those conditions.
yeh agreed. Two of us on 3/3.5m xps wings with same setup 880/140 in 25 knots and plus sometimes with some decent swell coming through did find the 880 a handful. Brilliant once we cranked DW - but in the turbulent waves beforehand its wasn't easy. Man felt almost 1125 like at times lol. she's got a ton of lift and the 94cm wing span starts to take its toll.
From reading the review. I can sense the trend in the front wing design. Most newer wing realease recently tend to have pretty high aspect AR 8-10 but has the foil profile that ride bigger than its surface area implied.
Higher camber at the mid section made the lift more gradual and lower the stall speed so it start easier to use. And tthey have more twist in the wing tip so it turn better and more forgiving.
The tradeoff is the lower top speed which is totally fine IMO. The foil is more fun and easier to ride for most users for majority of their riding.
I tried the 680 and 780 yesterday in 30 knots average wind, gusts up to 37 knots.
180 speed stab no shim
It was quite hectic going upwind against the chop but going downwind was very nice.
Perhaps a 205 surf or 140 dart stab or shimming the 180 would have made it easier to control.
Still have not been able to find out how much wind I need to get going on the 680, 780 and 880 because I always had too much wind.... I would like to get all 3 but that will be too expensive
Select to expand quoteCamarillo said..
I tried the 680 and 780 yesterday in 30 knots average wind, gusts up to 37 knots.
180 speed stab no shim
It was quite hectic going upwind against the chop but going downwind was very nice.
Perhaps a 205 surf or 140 dart stab or shimming the 180 would have made it easier to control.
Still have not been able to find out how much wind I need to get going on the 680, 780 and 880 because I always had too much wind.... I would like to get all 3 but that will be too expensive
below is what i found from the 880. Although used the dart set up with the 680 as well. Hopefully get to try the 780 this weekend.
Def red shim the 180 - way too much lift not shimmed - i also find it a tad draggy due to its naked angle of attack. Theres plenty of lift still with a red in it. Speeds the whole thing up on the 880. The dart needs a blue i only know this from talking to Aiden at armstrong and antman hanging with the team at merimbula. Most of them use the dart and blue then the 180 with red when lighter / smaller conditions. I've found this to be true myself. The dart is the best tail i think armstrong have ever made. When surf real big though a lot of crew like to use the 205.
Select to expand quoteTaeyeony said..
From reading the review. I can sense the trend in the front wing design. Most newer wing realease recently tend to have pretty high aspect AR 8-10 but has the foil profile that ride bigger than its surface area implied.
Higher camber at the mid section made the lift more gradual and lower the stall speed so it start easier to use. And tthey have more twist in the wing tip so it turn better and more forgiving.
The tradeoff is the lower top speed which is totally fine IMO. The foil is more fun and easier to ride for most users for majority of their riding.
It's fun watching the development of foil design - I think there's a lot more to come. My impression is that the design of the earliest foils is almost primitive. That's possible because just about anything will allow you to foil up (I've foiled a bit with a front wing mounted upside down, although I cannot recommend that ).
The first foil iteration were low to medium aspect "fat" wave foils. They were followed by going towards high aspect foils, although those often had clear disadvantages. Now, the attention shifts to the profile - the new HAs are very different from typical profiles, with a very pronounced concave towards the rear edge. This reminds me of similar (but much less pronounced) designs in high-end windsurfing fins. I think we'll see similar profiles pop up in other brands.
Board shape is similar - just about anything will work, and we are just starting to understand the advantages and draw-backs of different shapes, going past simplistic "hull speed" concepts. The interaction between board and foils shapes and different rider skills, preferences, and conditions is where things get really confusing. To illustrate: I went back to my very long, "super high swing weight" Stingray 140, to work on jibes, and paired it with an Axis HPS 1050 and FR 500 tail. This is a combination that better wingers would likely describe and "completely unusable", but for me, it worked much better than smaller boards, foils, and tail wings, for a variety of reasons. Ironically, I bought the smaller board because of frequent statements that smaller boards make jibing easier. In reality, it set me back several months. Once on the proper gear for my skills and preferences, I made very rapid progress, getting to a 75% dry rate, with a decent amount of almost foiled through jibes (just a very short touchdown before or after foot switch) within a few sessions.
I realize that I'm definitely not a typical winger or learner, but I do know others who have had even more problems learning things that other wingers learned very quickly. Fortunately, there was some very good, specific advice out there that really helped me (e.g. "HPS not Spitfire for learning to jibe"). So it's great to see the posts here become more specific, and finally including some of the trade-offs and not-so-fantastic characteristics. The more information a post has about skills, conditions, preferences, detailed experiences, and limitations, the more useful it is. In particular, I believe that including the "negatives" helps even the brand in the long run. Sure, lots of one-sided hype may sell more foils in the short run, but people disappointed with these hyped products are more likely to switch to other brands, so it's a loss in the long run.
Some personal feedback on the 780.
So had two DW winging runs yesterday with the 780 / 180 red with a 3m xps in 20-25.
Firstly i was filming Antman Supping DW (he was using the 880 / 140 blue) so that's some testimony right there on the speed, glide and pitch / yaw stability to keep up fully flagged.
It def is closer to the 925 / Ma 1000 speed and glide wise - but as you'd expect not quite the same as the 925 (you can't have everything). That being said you then didn't over shoot the bumps once of them and could generate enough speed and glide to link swell lines due to its stability and being able to carve hard and fast at will.
Whilst you always will lose some ability to pump and crazy low stall speed of the 880 - it had just enough to dig yourself out of a stalled hole behind a wave to chip across onto the next set of swells.
Apart from the obvious benefits given by a smaller wing span there was a characteristic i had predicted / hoped for and i was proven right. The 780 really responded to higher cadence (aka like we used on the old Has) which in turn generated more pump speed. This really helped not only digging out of near stalled holes, but allowed me at times to generate enough forward pump speed to get over the back and onto a swell line. Then you could resume the more drawn out slower cadence which helped bop onto those multiple smaller chip swells whilst waiting for the next decent swell set to catch you up.
Basically it had more pump gears than the 880. hence Im now predicting one could bridge some of the pump loss gap with the 880 when prone surfing, yet then get all the surfing benefits of the smaller wing span.
Just a theory but looking forward to finding out.
ps this fatty is at 81kg at the moment.
Two windy sessions in on 580. Riding 2.8m wing in head to 3-4ft overhead big roller Kailua swell where it stands up and breaks then backs off until next section. I had some connected glides that were easily over 100 meters.
Compared to 725.
Lift and glide very similar. Better pitch stability but side to side is a lot like the 525. Very low stall speed for such a small foil. I could almost stop and pull myself in a pivot on a jibe.
So far speed is similar to 725 but slower than 525. I'm using a blue shim and the 180 tail. Plan to try the red shim. I wasn't a big fan of the 140 tail on smaller foils but I imagine a lighter or more skilled rider could do magic with that.
Position of mast was 1cm closer to tail from where I would go with 725 or MA800
Compared to MA800.
580 has more lift and much better glide. It's easier to get on foil (less drag to get to speed). Can turn it hard on wave like MA800 without fear of breach.
MA800 handles white water wash better. 580 still a little sketchy in deep foam.
Very fun foil and I'm cautiously optimistic I'll be able to to get it going in 12-14kts with bigger wing. Once up, could easily see maintaining foil down to 8-12kts.
Select to expand quoteHi everyone, asking help to know which new Ha could replace my Ma, me 78 kg winging riding on lake (chop or wind swell) actually riding MA 1000, 1225,and 1475 , when there is some wind swell what I like the most is stay on foil and pump as much as I can so not looking necessary for speed.
Ha 880 and 1080 ?
which one could replace the HA 1475 or better stay whit it?
And of course I will by smaller stab
Thank's Eric
Select to expand quoteOahuwaterwalker said..
Two windy sessions in on 580. Riding 2.8m wing in head to 3-4ft overhead big roller Kailua swell where it stands up and breaks then backs off until next section. I had some connected glides that were easily over 100 meters.
Compared to 725.
Lift and glide very similar. Better pitch stability but side to side is a lot like the 525. Very low stall speed for such a small foil. I could almost stop and pull myself in a pivot on a jibe.
So far speed is similar to 725 but slower than 525. I'm using a blue shim and the 180 tail. Plan to try the red shim. I wasn't a big fan of the 140 tail on smaller foils but I imagine a lighter or more skilled rider could do magic with that.
Position of mast was 1cm closer to tail from where I would go with 725 or MA800
Compared to MA800.
580 has more lift and much better glide. It's easier to get on foil (less drag to get to speed). Can turn it hard on wave like MA800 without fear of breach.
MA800 handles white water wash better. 580 still a little sketchy in deep foam.
Very fun foil and I'm cautiously optimistic I'll be able to to get it going in 12-14kts with bigger wing. Once up, could easily see maintaining foil down to 8-12kts.
Sounds great, what's your weight? Got mine a few days ago.no wind yet. Can't wait to try it, I love the 725 and 925. Was a bit concerned about the 580, it's a butter knife, looks tiny.88kg here. Happy hear has similar lift than the 725. Will report back once I get a few goes.
Select to expand quotebolocom said..Oahuwaterwalker said..
Two windy sessions in on 580. Riding 2.8m wing in head to 3-4ft overhead big roller Kailua swell where it stands up and breaks then backs off until next section. I had some connected glides that were easily over 100 meters.
Compared to 725.
Lift and glide very similar. Better pitch stability but side to side is a lot like the 525. Very low stall speed for such a small foil. I could almost stop and pull myself in a pivot on a jibe.
So far speed is similar to 725 but slower than 525. I'm using a blue shim and the 180 tail. Plan to try the red shim. I wasn't a big fan of the 140 tail on smaller foils but I imagine a lighter or more skilled rider could do magic with that.
Position of mast was 1cm closer to tail from where I would go with 725 or MA800
Compared to MA800.
580 has more lift and much better glide. It's easier to get on foil (less drag to get to speed). Can turn it hard on wave like MA800 without fear of breach.
MA800 handles white water wash better. 580 still a little sketchy in deep foam.
Very fun foil and I'm cautiously optimistic I'll be able to to get it going in 12-14kts with bigger wing. Once up, could easily see maintaining foil down to 8-12kts.
Sounds great, what's your weight? Got mine a few days ago.no wind yet. Can't wait to try it, I love the 725 and 925. Was a bit concerned about the 580, it's a butter knife, looks tiny.88kg here. Happy hear has similar lift than the 725. Will report back once I get a few goes.
I'm about 75kg. Should have another go on it tomorrow. Look forward to reading about your experience with it.
Spent some time on the HA680 the last two times out. What a great foil.
Conditions were good on a 4m and a 5.5M (kinda lit) with surf ranging from breaking chest to head high to overhead big rollers with steep drops.
In the chest to head high stuff it was so fun. Incredible glide, easy to stay with the face of the wave and a bit more stable than the 580 through white water. Low end speeds were crazy and it was pretty easy to get on foil (I'm 75-80kg). There is definitely more glide than the 725. I would argue its almost as much at I've found on the 925.
In the bigger faster stuff it felt a little big on a double overhead roller where the face dropped steep in front of me. If I'd been on the 580 I could have dropped in without worry, if I was a bigger (or better) rider the 680 would have been fine.
I was a little worried about the 580 and 680 being too close in size. I'm not anymore. They both have their place and I can easily see the 680 being a daily driver for a lot of my days on the water. I'll bring out the 580 when the waves are more than 2-3 foot overhead.
Select to expand quoteOahuwaterwalker said..
Spent some time on the HA680 the last two times out. What a great foil.
Conditions were good on a 4m and a 5.5M (kinda lit) with surf ranging from breaking chest to head high to overhead big rollers with steep drops.
In the chest to head high stuff it was so fun. Incredible glide, easy to stay with the face of the wave and a bit more stable than the 580 through white water. Low end speeds were crazy and it was pretty easy to get on foil (I'm 75-80kg). There is definitely more glide than the 725. I would argue its almost as much at I've found on the 925.
In the bigger faster stuff it felt a little big on a double overhead roller where the face dropped steep in front of me. If I'd been on the 580 I could have dropped in without worry, if I was a bigger (or better) rider the 680 would have been fine.
I was a little worried about the 580 and 680 being too close in size. I'm not anymore. They both have their place and I can easily see the 680 being a daily driver for a lot of my days on the water. I'll bring out the 580 when the waves are more than 2-3 foot overhead.
great feedback. what tail you running ?
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
great feedback. what tail you running ?
180 with blue shim on both
Oahuwaterwalker, how does the 680 compare to the 725 in speed, roll, and high end control?
i'm towing with the 680 tomoz with 180 red on the new 40L in hopefully decent conditions. will report back.
Select to expand quoteWindoc said..
Oahuwaterwalker, how does the 680 compare to the 725 in speed, roll, and high end control?
A little slower on the top end, better roll, and high end control considerably easier. The roll is more like the MA800 which was my favorite aspect of that foil. You can push down into turns and not feel like it's going to foil out or get crazy.
The attention/skill needed to manage the 680 is very similar to riding the 925, but so much more fun and responsive.
To me, the 580 is the foil I always wanted that was a little smaller than the 725, but easier to ride than the 525. The 580 is very similar in speed to the 725, rolls like the 525, and has better pitch stability.
Yeah the 725 definitely has a quicker acceleration, especially along the upper speed range, while the 680 can be pushed to these higher speeds, it takes a bit more effort (wing or wave) and time to get there. In other words, the 680 has a pretty wide sweet spot speed range, just feels a bit under the 725 - what you gain on the low end, you lose a bit on the top end. That being said, I've yet to feel overfoiled in solid chest high gorge like conditions, even easily surviving a flat breach going around 20mph without foot straps.
I'll add... where I felt a bit "over foiled" I was also a bit overpowered on my hand wing. I'm not sure it would have been as pronounced if I was towing or had a smaller hand wing. Like MAF, up to a few feet overhead, I was able to drop in without any worry of things going sideways (aside from my own doing).
Select to expand quotebolocom said..Oahuwaterwalker said..
Two windy sessions in on 580. Riding 2.8m wing in head to 3-4ft overhead big roller Kailua swell where it stands up and breaks then backs off until next section. I had some connected glides that were easily over 100 meters.
Compared to 725.
Lift and glide very similar. Better pitch stability but side to side is a lot like the 525. Very low stall speed for such a small foil. I could almost stop and pull myself in a pivot on a jibe.
So far speed is similar to 725 but slower than 525. I'm using a blue shim and the 180 tail. Plan to try the red shim. I wasn't a big fan of the 140 tail on smaller foils but I imagine a lighter or more skilled rider could do magic with that.
Position of mast was 1cm closer to tail from where I would go with 725 or MA800
Compared to MA800.
580 has more lift and much better glide. It's easier to get on foil (less drag to get to speed). Can turn it hard on wave like MA800 without fear of breach.
MA800 handles white water wash better. 580 still a little sketchy in deep foam.
Very fun foil and I'm cautiously optimistic I'll be able to to get it going in 12-14kts with bigger wing. Once up, could easily see maintaining foil down to 8-12kts.
Sounds great, what's your weight? Got mine a few days ago.no wind yet. Can't wait to try it, I love the 725 and 925. Was a bit concerned about the 580, it's a butter knife, looks tiny.88kg here. Happy hear has similar lift than the 725. Will report back once I get a few goes.
Had a go at 580 for the first time today at Gerroa. Wind was light, 15 to 18, normally I would have used the 925, 5m wing..new toy so put the 580. needed a strong gust to get up, once on foil I was worried about dropping but it never happened. The stall speed for such a small foil is ridiculous. Very easy to ride, turns amazing and feels great. It doesn't feel as fast as the 725 but it's not slow.it's so well behaved that it doesn't require the precision of the 725. Wind pickup a bit more, gusty 20 and went out to the bombie. Small day, but clean and long walks, head high sets.didn't risk it and was pretty conservative, but had a great time. Super loose, fast and easy. Wind out there is gusty, never dropped, even with close to no wind.bottom line. I am 88kg, 60l board, 935 mast, 50 fuse, chopped 195 tail.
was having fun in 15 to 20 knots with a 580 front wing.still not sure how..also have a 780 but only tried it sup foiling in the surf and really liked it. I am glad didn't go 880.
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
i'm towing with the 680 tomoz with 180 red on the new 40L in hopefully decent conditions. will report back.
swell didn't eventuate so proned the new 40L wing board on the 880. For a wing board it's a damn decent prone board. Paddle speed limited due to hull
length but once the wave energy grabs it just planes with ease. Nice and narrow - make a great little crossover. Antman did get out for a prone on the 680 late in the day and made it look damn good.
Low end testing for 680 today. I'm sitting around 80kg these days, riding 69L board, 935 mast, 180 tail plus a 5.5 Ezzy Wing.
Did three sessions today, conditions ranging from 10-15 knots to one session that was 8 to barely 12. It took some work to get on foil in the lightest session, but once up, the 680 stays up. Low wind gybes were easy. Waves were mostly chest high. For me, I can't see why I would possibly want a bigger foil for winging, the 680 is still getting up and is so incredibly fun to ride even in these super light conditions.
Armstrong did really well with these, by far my favorite. The older HA are great for speed, the MA is great for surf turning. The new HA are a great happy medium between those two but with the added benefit of stability and crazy glide.
Select to expand quoteOahuwaterwalker said..
Did three sessions today, conditions ranging from 10-15 knots to one session that was 8 to barely 12. It took some work to get on foil in the lightest session, but once up, the 680 stays up. Low wind gybes were easy. Waves were mostly chest high. For me, I can't see why I would possibly want a bigger foil for winging, the 680 is still getting up and is so incredibly fun to ride even in these super light conditions.
That's pretty nuts and great to hear. We'll be on 380s in no time with how quickly foils are changing ...
Select to expand quoteWindoc said..Oahuwaterwalker said..
Did three sessions today, conditions ranging from 10-15 knots to one session that was 8 to barely 12. It took some work to get on foil in the lightest session, but once up, the 680 stays up. Low wind gybes were easy. Waves were mostly chest high. For me, I can't see why I would possibly want a bigger foil for winging, the 680 is still getting up and is so incredibly fun to ride even in these super light conditions.
That's pretty nuts and great to hear. We'll be on 380s in no time with how quickly foils are changing ...
Since yesterday I've been thinking more about the implications of a 680 with low stall speed for light wind. While I could coax the 725 up in similar conditions if the wind dropped too low or I had a glitch on a gybe, I was down. It definitely takes more to get on foil with the 680 but, once on foil, the stall speed of the 680 is not that different than the MA1000. This means that light wind winging (as long as you don't fall a lot) can be done at a much higher performance level than before.
In Kailua, we have days where the wind can be 8 to 12 knots and there might be a killer swell on the outside. In the past, that meant going out on bigger foils that weren't ideal for the size of the surf. With the 680, I'm thinking it might be possible to score some amazing wave riding conditions on light wind days.
I don't know a lot about other brands, but I imagine more and more this will be true across for other brands as well (I think FOne may already be there with the Eagles). Very exciting progression for the foil side of this sport.
Select to expand quoteOahuwaterwalker said..Windoc said..Oahuwaterwalker said..
Did three sessions today, conditions ranging from 10-15 knots to one session that was 8 to barely 12. It took some work to get on foil in the lightest session, but once up, the 680 stays up. Low wind gybes were easy. Waves were mostly chest high. For me, I can't see why I would possibly want a bigger foil for winging, the 680 is still getting up and is so incredibly fun to ride even in these super light conditions.
That's pretty nuts and great to hear. We'll be on 380s in no time with how quickly foils are changing ...
Since yesterday I've been thinking more about the implications of a 680 with low stall speed for light wind. While I could coax the 725 up in similar conditions if the wind dropped too low or I had a glitch on a gybe, I was down. It definitely takes more to get on foil with the 680 but, once on foil, the stall speed of the 680 is not that different than the MA1000. This means that light wind winging (as long as you don't fall a lot) can be done at a much higher performance level than before.
In Kailua, we have days where the wind can be 8 to 12 knots and there might be a killer swell on the outside. In the past, that meant going out on bigger foils that weren't ideal for the size of the surf. With the 680, I'm thinking it might be possible to score some amazing wave riding conditions on light wind days.
I don't know a lot about other brands, but I imagine more and more this will be true across for other brands as well (I think FOne may already be there with the Eagles). Very exciting progression for the foil side of this sport.
I was about to say - f one already have such an option. I suppose the only proviso i'd say is a smaller wing with say a 780/880 could also be an option for some if they don't want to use a 5m ish wing.
I watched Antman prone the other day and he was really moving quick pump wise back out to link. Looked to me as fast as the 725 on the pump and effortless in fairly tumultuous conditions (swell was weirdly chaotic driven by a cyclone up north).
Yeh the Ha is a really nice compromise between the old Ha and the MA for lighter conditions. When nuked in decent waves the Ma is still a great option.
If only we could all ride like Cash!!
Finally got a session on the HA680. 935 mast, 50 fuse, Speed 180, red shim, KT Dragonfly 7.7, 4m KT DD. Wind was light initially, maybe 12 knots inside and later on 20 on the outside. Windswell of 1-3', so nothing to write home about. What the hell; this foil gets up easily, turns great, pumps well, and has stupidly low stall speed and good top end without any sketchiness. Really enjoyed riding this foil! Best 3 second speed of just over 25 knots and one run of 28 knots high speed (there's more on tap for sure). Great speed range. Can't call this foil slow but the ease of use and ability to nurse low speed turns while remaining on foil is excellent even at 90 kilos. Much better pitch stability than the 725 and you can turn very, very hard without it doing anything unexpected. Looking forward to spending more time on it! I wouldn't be afraid to get the 580 at all if I was a little lighter; it'll be a ripper. The new HAs seem to love operating in their middle power band but will happily go faster or slower without getting weird.
