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Show Pony Alert @ Brighton WA

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Created by Bo > 9 months ago, 28 Dec 2010
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Mr float
NSW, 3452 posts
3 Jan 2011 9:23PM
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There we go .page 5 .Now it really is time that this returned to topic now that RSC has had the last word

gordknot
NSW, 148 posts
3 Jan 2011 9:34PM
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"You have written above: "Blame the 'young lady dressed as an instructor', ...".

They are not my words."

check your second post on page 2.

..... will you need to have the last word???

Bigwavedave
QLD, 2057 posts
3 Jan 2011 8:37PM
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Mr float said...



There we go .page 5 .Now it really is time that this returned to topic now that RSC has had the last word


He's an academic. He's going for word count!

Stevo J
WA, 109 posts
3 Jan 2011 6:39PM
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The facts rsc are PAINFULLY obvious for all but yourself to see it seems. For someone who is new to the sport, you have exploded onto the scene like a bull in a china shop presuming to know more than the multitude of people here who undoubtedly have far more experience than your good self.
Would you walk into a new job as a junior and barge into a management meeting and proceed to tell all and sundry how it is? I think not. Perhaps a wiser course of action would be to tread softly, observe, and be prepared to accept that it will take time for you to gain respect amongst your peers. You would also be well served to take constructive criticism (and there has been plenty of that too before you so utterly alienated yourself) on board.
Perhaps we could all chip in for that mirror....

getfunky
WA, 4485 posts
3 Jan 2011 6:54PM
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Must be sheeple shearing season or sumpin?

Sheeple baggin the cr@pper out of one dude and no mention of the many VERY experianced nongs that really are the problem with this kiting area.

No it's much better to play a slagging game online.

Shame children.. no kiting for you this week. Straight to your windless room (well if you are in Perf it is - note the elevated anxiety levels).


BTW Stevo - I wouldn't read as much into the numbers game - 50% of SB is just here for the pizztake.

Having said that I do agree that rsc needs to take a deep breath - but I'm not gonna rub myself in baby oil cause i gave him a ro-shambo internerd style.



Soooo.. who wants to sort some better/safer kiting practices in the area.

Nah - just keep slingin sh!t - it's the preferred option.




EDIT: Feel free to direct the sheeple sh!t sling at me folks - I'm off to get a pizza and chill by the river not read any more of this bollocks.

Arivaderci

rsc
WA, 96 posts
3 Jan 2011 6:59PM
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gordknot said...


"You have written above: "Blame the 'young lady dressed as an instructor', ...".

They are not my words."

check your second post on page 2.

..... will you need to have the last word???


One last squeeze just for you ...

"Just then, at the point of lift, a young lady dressed as an instructor walking by with her student walked/ran up behind me and yelled out over my shoulder that I had "the bar around the wrong way..." (page 2)

Taken entirely out of context -- there is no blame mentioned in the sentence. It is a descriptive statement of fact (as I saw it). That is what happened. Interpretation of the situation is all that has followed. The comment links to the fact that she was in a dress code that identified her as a person working on the beach. Hence being employed. The logic follows from there.

You can interpret it as you wish, and as you have. My statement stands as it is and you have misquoted me in this regard. Please be more careful and truthful.

mandog
WA, 15 posts
3 Jan 2011 7:07PM
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rsc ........ have a good night sleep

Beersy
TAS, 753 posts
3 Jan 2011 10:19PM
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rsc said...

gordknot said...


"You have written above: "Blame the 'young lady dressed as an instructor', ...".

They are not my words."

check your second post on page 2.

..... will you need to have the last word???


One last squeeze just for you ...

"Just then, at the point of lift, a young lady dressed as an instructor walking by with her student walked/ran up behind me and yelled out over my shoulder that I had "the bar around the wrong way..." (page 2)

Taken entirely out of context -- there is no blame mentioned in the sentence. It is a descriptive statement of fact (as I saw it). That is what happened. Interpretation of the situation is all that has followed. The comment links to the fact that she was in a dress code that identified her as a person working on the beach. Hence being employed. The logic follows from there.

You can interpret it as you wish, and as you have. My statement stands as it is and you have misquoted me in this regard. Please be more careful and truthful.


Did you not say you took 60% of the blame?

Would that not imply that 40% of the blame belongs to the "young lady dressed as an instructor"?

richswing
WA, 724 posts
3 Jan 2011 7:19PM
Thumbs Up

Here Here Sebol,

When I was travelling, always thought Australia was carefree, now with all the americanism its gone to yankee land.

Oh bye the way, rsc you're got problems - there was a guy on Kiteforum about a year ago that could not let go and kept on making an ass of himself on the forum, think about it.

Cheer
Rich

dave......
WA, 2119 posts
3 Jan 2011 7:20PM
Thumbs Up

C
L

Equipment, check twice launch once.
A
R
espect.
Respect your kite
Respect the conditions
Respect other kiters
Respect other beach users.........
waksa ANAGRAM
RSC...Russel, you may be a legal expert, but as any beginner in any sport you are oblivious to mistakes,
whether technical (setting up your kite), motor skill aquisition,
or social norms in any culture. A wise man is always learning, and a fool is always right, many time when pointing a finger in blame, 3 fingers point back.
( a plethora of famous quotes from many famous people).
Am I speaking in your language?

gruezi
WA, 3464 posts
3 Jan 2011 7:23PM
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Where da kn is Slave when you need him.

gordknot
NSW, 148 posts
3 Jan 2011 10:27PM
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rsc, i was bettin' you couldn't resist....

and hell, after all your relentless determination, i'll give you 60% ol' mate... just keep an eye out for those femme fetales next time you launch

default
WA, 1255 posts
3 Jan 2011 7:49PM
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pretty humid today huh

bingles
WA, 363 posts
3 Jan 2011 8:02PM
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Brandy and dry anyone??

seafever17
WA, 360 posts
3 Jan 2011 8:04PM
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rsc said in another topic

"I live down S/Bay way and ...."




Thank the sweet lord for small mercies

snoopydog
WA, 71 posts
3 Jan 2011 8:09PM
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and some people just waste oxygen,another good resource wasted on a peanut with half a brain

rsc
WA, 96 posts
3 Jan 2011 8:49PM
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dave...... said...

C
L

Equipment, check twice launch once.
A
R
espect.
Respect your kite
Respect the conditions
Respect other kiters
Respect other beach users.........
waksa ANAGRAM
RSC...Russel, you may be a legal expert, but as any beginner in any sport you are oblivious to mistakes,
whether technical (setting up your kite), motor skill aquisition,
or social norms in any culture. A wise man is always learning, and a fool is always right, many time when pointing a finger in blame, 3 fingers point back.
( a plethora of famous quotes from many famous people).
Am I speaking in your language?



No, I am not a legal expert, nor am I trying to project such an image. I'm just 'joe public' with a reasonable knowledge of general legal issues, principles and frameworks through life experience. The seeming lack of this in others is what worries me.

Yes, u r talking my language. But sorry guys, long weekend is over, I need to return to the real world of work tomorrow. Hope you work out the public space thing before something serious happens to stuff up your fun (and mine if I can get the hang of it).

rsc
WA, 96 posts
3 Jan 2011 8:53PM
Thumbs Up

gordknot said...

rsc, i was bettin' you couldn't resist....

and hell, after all your relentless determination, i'll give you 60% ol' mate... just keep an eye out for those femme fetales next time you launch


There is nothing gender in this. It is just the way it happened. My launching style and competency is 101% better than when that story was generated.

Move on and focus on the Show Ponies!

Saffer
VIC, 4501 posts
3 Jan 2011 11:54PM
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rsc said...
The case study details are not overly important: larger 12m kite; new starter; self launch; strongish wind; public beach; did it a few days before ok; made a mistake due to forgetting something; damaged equipment; and sore body. And very angry for a few hours.

I was about to launch and it was very touch and go -- it was probably going to hurt. But I'm a large build and I'd done it before very carefully. Just then, at the point of lift, a young lady dressed as an instructor walking by with her student walked/ran up behind me and yelled out over my shoulder that I had "the bar around the wrong way" (or words to that effect). I turned my head and this split my attention and caused some confusion for a moment.

In the 2-3 nano-seconds I looked down at the bar and it was the right way round (red to the left) and I said "I know what I'm doing" (or words to that effect, meaning what the "f..." are you talking about?) and in the process turned back to the kite and continued with the delicate balancing act, and bingo, before I had time to think, up it went. I was a little off balance due to the intervention (both mentally and physically) and was lifted up and dumped on a small sand lump about 10m away: 110kg, 12m and 20+knot wind resulted in one broken string, very sore ribs (not broken thank goodness) and a red face. I was angry! And she had walked on as if nothing had happened.



Let clarify in a little more detail why this is your fault:

1. Inexperienced kiter attempting to self launch in strong wind - if you're inexperienced, you should only be self launching in light winds to start with.
2. Taking your eye off the kite when you are not experienced enough to "feel" where the kite is when you're not watching it
3. Not getting another kiter to launch you when there are other kiters on the beach
4. You weren't concentrating on your kite
5. You were clearly in a rush

None of these relate to her actions and these are the primary causes of what went wrong. You say there were no other kiters nearby, but clearly if the instructor was close enough to run over and shout over your shoulder, you weren't very far from people and clearly close enough to ask someone to launch you. As an experienced kiter, I only self launch when I am on my own. if there is another kiter pumping their kite, I'll wait till they're finished so I can get them to launch. I know how to self launch but its an unnecessary risk to yourself and those around you so why use it if you don't have to.

There are no grey areas to the discussion, there is no apportion of blame. There are no ways the instructor could be at fault. Even if she shouted at you and called you a douche bag, you should still be focussing on one thing, your kite because that is the one thing you have under your control.

rsc
WA, 96 posts
3 Jan 2011 9:10PM
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Beersy said...

rsc said...

gordknot said...


"You have written above: "Blame the 'young lady dressed as an instructor', ...".

They are not my words."

check your second post on page 2.

..... will you need to have the last word???


One last squeeze just for you ...

"Just then, at the point of lift, a young lady dressed as an instructor walking by with her student walked/ran up behind me and yelled out over my shoulder that I had "the bar around the wrong way..." (page 2)

Taken entirely out of context -- there is no blame mentioned in the sentence. It is a descriptive statement of fact (as I saw it). That is what happened. Interpretation of the situation is all that has followed. The comment links to the fact that she was in a dress code that identified her as a person working on the beach. Hence being employed. The logic follows from there.

You can interpret it as you wish, and as you have. My statement stands as it is and you have misquoted me in this regard. Please be more careful and truthful.


Did you not say you took 60% of the blame?

Would that not imply that 40% of the blame belongs to the "young lady dressed as an instructor"?




I use the words 'responsibility' and 'risk'. Blame is your choice. It is too emotive in my opinion. If you wish to be accurate in quoting/referencing then qualify your statements with what I wrote (e.g. 60%/40%), which btw, I subsequently moved up to 70%/30% when I discussed with others face2face after the event and after the relentless bullying here I suggested 80%/20%. But that is not the point of the exercise. Use a better language -- I'm suggesting risk communications or similar. Find another bone to chew, this one is done to death.

rsc
WA, 96 posts
3 Jan 2011 9:15PM
Thumbs Up

Saffer said...

rsc said...
The case study details are not overly important: larger 12m kite; new starter; self launch; strongish wind; public beach; did it a few days before ok; made a mistake due to forgetting something; damaged equipment; and sore body. And very angry for a few hours.

I was about to launch and it was very touch and go -- it was probably going to hurt. But I'm a large build and I'd done it before very carefully. Just then, at the point of lift, a young lady dressed as an instructor walking by with her student walked/ran up behind me and yelled out over my shoulder that I had "the bar around the wrong way" (or words to that effect). I turned my head and this split my attention and caused some confusion for a moment.

In the 2-3 nano-seconds I looked down at the bar and it was the right way round (red to the left) and I said "I know what I'm doing" (or words to that effect, meaning what the "f..." are you talking about?) and in the process turned back to the kite and continued with the delicate balancing act, and bingo, before I had time to think, up it went. I was a little off balance due to the intervention (both mentally and physically) and was lifted up and dumped on a small sand lump about 10m away: 110kg, 12m and 20+knot wind resulted in one broken string, very sore ribs (not broken thank goodness) and a red face. I was angry! And she had walked on as if nothing had happened.



Let clarify in a little more detail why this is your fault:

1. Inexperienced kiter attempting to self launch in strong wind - if you're inexperienced, you should only be self launching in light winds to start with.
2. Taking your eye off the kite when you are not experienced enough to "feel" where the kite is when you're not watching it
3. Not getting another kiter to launch you when there are other kiters on the beach
4. You weren't concentrating on your kite
5. You were clearly in a rush

None of these relate to her actions and these are the primary causes of what went wrong. You say there were no other kiters nearby, but clearly if the instructor was close enough to run over and shout over your shoulder, you weren't very far from people and clearly close enough to ask someone to launch you. As an experienced kiter, I only self launch when I am on my own. if there is another kiter pumping their kite, I'll wait till they're finished so I can get them to launch. I know how to self launch but its an unnecessary risk to yourself and those around you so why use it if you don't have to.

There are no grey areas to the discussion, there is no apportion of blame. There are no ways the instructor could be at fault. Even if she shouted at you and called you a douche bag, you should still be focussing on one thing, your kite because that is the one thing you have under your control.


"Let clarify in a little more detail why [I believe] this is your fault: ..." is the more accurate statement. And basically, all these points have already been raised and commented on. Stop going blind and find a real problem. There are grey areas and that is my point exactly. I choose to disagree with you.

Greenfinger
WA, 239 posts
3 Jan 2011 9:36PM
Thumbs Up

Wow talk about flogging a dead horse, this is really getting very monotonous.

Lambroast
WA, 177 posts
3 Jan 2011 10:06PM
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But seagulls don't have eyebrows.....

dave......
WA, 2119 posts
3 Jan 2011 10:08PM
Thumbs Up

dave...... said...

C
L

Equipment, check twice launch once.
A
R
espect.
Respect your kite
Respect the conditions
Respect other kiters
Respect other beach users.........
waksa ANAGRAM
RSC...Russel, you may be a legal expert, but as any beginner in any sport you are oblivious to mistakes,
whether technical (setting up your kite), motor skill aquisition,
or social norms in any culture. A wise man is always learning, and a fool is always right, many time when pointing a finger in blame, 3 fingers point back.
( a plethora of famous quotes from many famous people).
Am I speaking in your language?



Russel, Im sorry youve had so replies, but clearly many people who we all know who have had 2000 hours + of kiting are wrong in your opinion. I tell all my students in the days of a 2 line kites, it was'nt a sport for 95% of the population, nowadays, it is suited for 95% of the population, do you want to be in the 5% percentile? dude, we dont want to turn you off the sport, please PM me if you have any issues or questions (or a free lesson as I am certified), as I hate circular arguements. We do understand what your saying advice is taken when asked for, and interfering is a different story, in this sport a good instructor will always interfere in a potentially dangerous situation, regardless wether they are a student or not. Please dont take these comments negatively, but these are as I said based on a lot of history.

dave......
WA, 2119 posts
3 Jan 2011 10:15PM
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No one is saying you are this guy, but thats why people froth, we have all witnessed a Jean-Claude.

mandog
WA, 15 posts
3 Jan 2011 10:24PM
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Dave i havent seen a kook like that at woodies , yet ill get Pieare to take care of him

Russell

djdojo
VIC, 1607 posts
4 Jan 2011 1:33AM
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Well folks, I'm flabbergasted. I had a squiz at this thread when it was half a page long and now I return to find this train wreck. This is the most bizarre seabreeze thread I've read in my three years of frequenting this site.

RSC, you say your technique has improved 101% since the event. This may be so but unless you're superhuman, you'll still take many more beatings in this sport. Whatever level you're at, there's always more to learn and more to stuff up, and unless you have some humility then the forces of nature will hand your ass to you on a plate more rather than less forcefully.

Hubris and defensiveness cut very little mustard on this forum, and even less when dealing with wind and waves. Whoever was right or wrong, whatever liability issues you perceive, if you're going to persist in this sport you'll need to work with, not against the forces around you, be they social or physical.

In AA they say you have to hit bottom before you can truly realise that puffed up pride is futile and that only a power greater than yourself can save you. They also say that for some folk, hitting bottom is on the other side of death. In this case perhaps the power greater than yourself may be the collective experience of a community of kiters who have been kiting and nutting out these issues for a long long time?

getfunky
WA, 4485 posts
4 Jan 2011 12:35AM
Thumbs Up

Train wrecks are probably more humane than this waste of net space.




Boy peeps are senstitive to the 'sheeple' term (and eagerly stand in line to hit the red thumbs )

Game over. Reboot..

Time to


4 Jan 2011 9:42AM
Thumbs Up

rsc said...

dave...... said...

C
L

Equipment, check twice launch once.
A
R
espect.
Respect your kite
Respect the conditions
Respect other kiters
Respect other beach users.........
waksa ANAGRAM
RSC...Russel, you may be a legal expert, but as any beginner in any sport you are oblivious to mistakes,
whether technical (setting up your kite), motor skill aquisition,
or social norms in any culture. A wise man is always learning, and a fool is always right, many time when pointing a finger in blame, 3 fingers point back.
( a plethora of famous quotes from many famous people).
Am I speaking in your language?



No, I am not a legal expert, nor am I trying to project such an image. I'm just 'joe public' with a reasonable knowledge of general legal issues, principles and frameworks through life experience. The seeming lack of this in others is what worries me.

Yes, u r talking my language. But sorry guys, long weekend is over, I need to return to the real world of work tomorrow. Hope you work out the public space thing before something serious happens to stuff up your fun (and mine if I can get the hang of it).


Have a read of this, it will keep you busy for a while.
www.historyoflaw.info/history-of-english-law.html

I'm no expert either, and my earlier post was only meant to help you see that each person is 100% responsible for their actions, regardless of the way our legal system may have twisted and turned reality into a game of haves and have nots.

Shared responsibility is a concept, and therefore it is a mind game, and will fool only a foolish mind. The fact that a precedent was set at law, just means that more litigation is possible and the "legal" animal continues to feed. No law can ever stop one from flying a kite!

You talk about reality, and we never heard anything except your opinion on what happened, so is that reality, or just point of view?

This is reality, everything that is real exists completely independent of any man made opinion, or law, and cannot be threatened
Nothing unreal exists

Have fun, listen and learn, thats what we are here for.

rsc
WA, 96 posts
4 Jan 2011 7:39AM
Thumbs Up

dave...... said...

dave...... said...

C
L

Equipment, check twice launch once.
A
R
espect.
Respect your kite
Respect the conditions
Respect other kiters
Respect other beach users.........
waksa ANAGRAM
RSC...Russel, you may be a legal expert, but as any beginner in any sport you are oblivious to mistakes,
whether technical (setting up your kite), motor skill aquisition,
or social norms in any culture. A wise man is always learning, and a fool is always right, many time when pointing a finger in blame, 3 fingers point back.
( a plethora of famous quotes from many famous people).
Am I speaking in your language?



Russel, Im sorry youve had so replies, but clearly many people who we all know who have had 2000 hours + of kiting are wrong in your opinion. I tell all my students in the days of a 2 line kites, it was'nt a sport for 95% of the population, nowadays, it is suited for 95% of the population, do you want to be in the 5% percentile? dude, we dont want to turn you off the sport, please PM me if you have any issues or questions (or a free lesson as I am certified), as I hate circular arguements. We do understand what your saying advice is taken when asked for, and interfering is a different story, in this sport a good instructor will always interfere in a potentially dangerous situation, regardless wether they are a student or not. Please dont take these comments negatively, but these are as I said based on a lot of history.



Dave, Thank you for this reply. But I really do not have time to continue the exercise. Your offer is appreciated but not necessary thank you. I have other sources of that service if/when required. But yes, I'm responding for two reasons - (a) I am one of those members of the public that have invested in equipment and training on the basis that it is now ready for the 95%. However, based on what I now see and read and experience I'm not so sure it is that high yet; (b) just to reaffirm my original point and concern which you at least have picked up on: if this interference principle is standard practice then I think you and others in your trade should get serious legal opinions as to where you stand. I see a risk for you in some cases, irrespective of your good intentions and honorable motives. That was/is the 'risk' message from me. If this standard approach is based on qualified legal opinion then please say so and give the source for verification. I'd be happy to follow it up.

As noted by Kitepower Australia (below), for whom I will just make a comment here as well, I hold a different opinion about legal risk than he obviously does. The law is part of the reality and it is no mind game. Ignorance of it, or denial of it is no excuse and if you are misleading people here and elsewhere then there is a culture of irresponsibility in respect to the law that needs to be challenged in my opinion. I have done that. That 'service' is given here with the best of intentions and according to the same good motives and principles that you and others espouse here in respect to the actual behaviour on the beach.

If you want me to shift my opinion on this matter then produce real evidence that my views on risk (legal) are incorrect or unfounded -- then you will have added value for me and others. Otherwise I assume the precautionary principle and act accordingly until proven otherwise.

In the meantime, and as a sign off, unless absolutely necessary for me to respond in order to correct/defend etc, thank you to one mature and thoughtful member who recently emailed me a very +ve, helpful and constructive reply. I won't name the person as they appear not to want to be caught up in the show here -- but I will be happy to acknowledge him/her if they wish. But for any others others who might be interested: "if you put your safety leash on your flagging line or ring depending on what brand kite you fly and one hand on the safety release when you self launch you can instantly kill the power in the kite if the launch goes skewwiff, this is basic safety and should be the number one lesson shown to everyone for 101% safe launches every time, hope this helps as serious injury often happens when the launch goes wrong for whatever reason." To the source: Yes, it helps. Good advice. Thank you.



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"Show Pony Alert @ Brighton WA" started by Bo