djdojo said...laurie said...
Been an interesting topic this one, however ...
Nah, RSC gets what's coming. If he wants to keep jumping into the bear pit with ever more elaborate justifications for his actions and ever more verbose avoidance of his own ego issues then let him. I for one am curious to see how much larger the albatross around his neck may grow before he either strangles to death, or experiences a moment of grace and says something like,
1) "Sorry guys, I have a lot to learn about kiting, and maybe a bit to learn about myself. In hindsight maybe inventing a research project was a silly subterfuge to make myself feel important and justified when my pride was hurt and now I realise that I should back down a bit and get back to basics. Hope to share a session and a beer somewhere down the track."
or, if the project existed all along,
2) "Sorry guys, I have a lot to learn about kiting, and maybe a bit to learn about myself. Maybe if I'm going to enter a community as a researcher I should be up-front about that from the start. As a soft-systems researcher and second-order cybernetician I will give more thought to the ethical and methodological importance of disclosure and especially of establishing rapport. I'm going to take some time out from argumentation and instead go and learn some of these practical people skills. Hope to share a session and a beer somewhere down the track."
Ok, I’ll pick this one up for the record although what I have to say is very far from the topic. If it develops then it should move to another thread imo. In fact djdodo, as there seems to be no interest here and only rudeness then I am prepared to email you direct offline through this website system if you wish. It is long and concludes my efforts for this session. I’ll drop the short version here now. It responds to the points you raise. If you or others want the longer version where I suggest other links to people you may be interested in and some ideas for simple solutions then use the email/message service and I’ll oblige 1:1 for the record.
Dear Djdodo,
From your self promotion at your website (
www.brendanbond.com.au) you appear to have a solid grasp of many of the deeper themes being explored here. However, espousing theory and practicing are two related but distinct activities. Words are cheap as they say: it is what you do that matters.
So you have reached Hon. Level – congratulations. Now perhaps if you applied your alleged knowledge and skills here better then others might benefit more. Or could it be you are also sitting back and observing the show and taking notes? I hope so. Be my guest, it is an open research phenomena. I am doing little more than this – other than also applying a certain catalyst effect – that is my practice according to the theory as I understand it.
You raise the ethics issue – fine. I have no ethics issue in what I’m doing. My approach is according the way of people like James Lovelock who ‘work’ as private researchers on issues they find interesting. There is no commercial or actual real or implied link between myself and my action here (or elsewhere) and any organisation or association which I need to declare or justify or ask permission from. I am a free spirit and a free man. I do not give up this freedom without very careful consideration: hence my hesitation on joining AKSA and agreeing to its indemnity conditions.
As for declaring it. Well, if it was a real research programme then what you say is correct. But it is not. It is me, myself, working in my own backyard to fix my problems such as road and traffic noise, hoon behaviour on the roads and in some cases on the beach. It is a GLOCAL phenomena. This website which I normally use to check the weather/wind conditions simply attracted my eye with the title “Show Pony”. My original comment addressed one of the sub-points of the topic – the rest is history as they say.
The broader research topic fits within the theme of the responsible development of sustainability. My area of interest is good governance – hence the link to cybernetics, and more specifically management cybernetics (Beer). When not ‘ distracted’ by this raging viral ‘outrage’ phenomena I am normally participating in a small forum of cybernetic experts who participate from all around the world. I am a junior in those ranks, many of whom do not just know of Bateson, Beer, Maturana, Pask, Von Forester etc but studied, taught and ate meals with them. I write a paper every odd year for a small journal on Systemic Practice and Action Research. I am not an academic and have no interest in being one.
On this basis:
• I reject your typing me with labels such as “a soft-systems researcher and second-order cybernetician” - I am not a label generated in your mind or anyone else’s. I am a human being who is entitled to his rights and privileges under the laws of the country. Those rights include ‘free speech’, peace and private enjoyment of my home and neighborhood (which includes a beach), and safety and enjoyment without fascist bullying and domination by group think. My responsibilities include (in this context) acting safely towards others in a public space so as to keep the peace. Nothing expressed here in this thread’s context conflicts with this. What I believe, what I think, and within certain bounds, what I say, is entirely my private domain and you or anyone else here will just have to live with it. I purchased a kitesurfing kit and training – I did not join a cult. However, as it became quickly obvious to me that in fact there was very strong cult-like behaviour and attitudes here I very quickly got out my ‘note book’. It is a free world! So, in the vernacular: eF-off with your intrusion into my personal domain! Play your NLP games all your like, but please demonstrate the respect you expect yourself.
• Your “curiosity” statement gives some insight into your paradigm. It is very good to be curious but you step just a bit too far by what you go on to say next imo.
• I would normally stop here, but seeing you are so confident in your talents to read others, and so arrogant as to presume to prescribe a set of linguistic ‘solutions’ for others to ‘think’, then I will continue a touch more so people have alternatives to consider.
• Your first alternative: I do not drink beer. I suggest you analyse your own statements in a second-order manner to better understand where you yourself are coming from. I suggest start with your opening statement to both alternatives “Sorry …”. Sorry for what? Do you want to spank me or something? I am afraid my ‘child’ (in your mind) is not ready for your ‘adult’ in your mind to get orgasmic relief through psycho-physical abuse. Go figure…!
• Your second alternative has more weight to it. However: (a) I’m not “entering a community” – I’m posting on a public forum website; (b) I’m not (as noted above) a “soft-systems researcher and second-order cybernetician” – I’m a joe public (with some skills) concerned about a local issue and communicating to the best of my ability (effectively or otherwise in your mind) on a global internet service; (c) “more thought to the ethical and methodological importance of disclosure and especially of establishing rapport” – well, I did give it more thought in light of your posting and, I believe, clarified it in my response here; and (d) “take some time out from argumentation and instead go and learn some of these practical people skills” – well, good try for touting for business but not really relevant imo. Based on your web site alone I might suggest you should be more active here, and at earlier stages, to help guide the ‘strategic conversation’ towards emerging a solution for the theme topic (Show Pony effect) and more rapidly dissolving the ‘problem situation’ growing out there in the public domain – i.e. one I would describe as outrage. I believe it can be handled by use of risk communication (e.g. see Sandman) and approached with Maturana & Varela's languaging in mind.
Now, in summary, as cybernetic feedback, to more fundamental observations about your self promoting website.
1. In general it reads well. You have covered a number of interesting areas that I myself have also embraced (including many years in the 1980s receiving Alexander treatments). You will no doubt remember that Alexander was overheard once to say to a patient/client: “If you ask me to sit/stand then all I can do is agree” (or words to that effect). Pure VSM system 5 and the exact systemic-linguistic point that needs to be ‘emerged’ here to find the core policy-identity issues that are blocking sustainable, responsible and viably development of kitesurfing. That is, development and resolution of a micro ‘problem’ and a macro culture effect which is, in ecological speak, providing a niche for that ‘problem’ species. I would offer a link to my paper which used various techniques to tap the blocked energy in the ‘undecidable’ situation of concern at a departmental level to good effect (and it was I believe also appreciated by someone in the Melbourne scene with similar challenges based on email feedback). However, in this forum I do not consider that safe or prudent. Perhaps you and others might ask yourselves “why?” based on the evidence listed here? Then you might be able to practice better what you espouse for the improvement of your fellow ‘community’. Using the VSM language, the issue I raised by way of a simple case study example was a communication device to show, for a non-technical audience, a certain dynamic that had risk (and could be directly related to the topic of Show Pony and their safe management in a public place). The actual higher ‘problem’ is at another level of recursion – ....
In summary, practice what you preach. Less handy work on your ‘bar’ and more on your books might help. Conjoining the two might find you with some good winds for you mind.
“Hope to share a session and a beer somewhere down the track.” – that is very dependent … so far, only mild interest on my part.
My ‘research’ is simply an extension of my life in my local domain. I apply ‘sense of place’ in a triple bottom line approach (economic, social and environmental) with culture and inter-generational equity dimensions added. The fuller Futures framework covers social, technological, economic, environmental and political dimensions (STEEP). It is not ‘disembodied’ into some extra academic activity – it is right here in front of my front door! I have a right to act in my own locality. I am doing that. ....
I am justified and empowered in my efforts (using all my skills and resources) by the very fact that under sustainability theory I am perfectly able to start investigating the area around my house and neighborhood (say within a radius of 1 km) for various boundaries of contention (my actual research interest) without recourse to artificial ‘separation of observer’ logic. The observer is imbedded in the experiment (and actually is, more correctly, not separated in the first place – i.e. this is real time analogue not dualistic digital). And here I am: not because I am some clandestine ‘researcher’ in conspiracy mode -- but rather because I am a mature, concerned citizen, ratepayer, beach enjoyer, parent, grandparent and freedom-lover working in my Glocal time-space. I do not want to close this recreational activity (and sport) down – I want to enjoy it. But I will ‘vote’ in any local council decisions based on what I think is best for all. Based on this experience I’m still undecided. I read here that these ‘voices’ do not necessarily represent the wider kitesurfing community culture and views. I am pleased to hear that – but without demonstrated action and evidence (here or elsewhere) I will reserve my judgment. ...
That is a warp for me. I’ll comment only to correct, or add value to the Show Pony issue as it develops. And yes, Monitor (Laurie), the air is getting a bit stale. The desirable outcomes implied in the resolution of the title issue of this thread will come soon or never (and I’ll only claim 20% causation … ;-).
Good luck and good night!
(
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Night,_and_Good_Luck )
Regards
(btw: wikipeadia in this context is a 'good enough' meta-language device. If you see it needs improving then do it yourself. )
My dear fellow kiters. The same circular arguments and we end up in a hopeless vortex of hardened perspectives. It sucks us in and the beaches get closed down. Not now, but eventually. E.g Mullaloo kiters have now perhaps 5% beach access...
