Forums > Windsurfing General

sailing with the plug out !!

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Created by DunkO > 9 months ago, 23 Jan 2012
DrJ
ACT, 481 posts
24 Jan 2012 6:56PM
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Also those that say a vacuum pump won't work because the system will reach equilibrium are wrong. Equilibrium will only be reached in a closed system, attaching a pump that constantly draws a vacuum will remove any water vapor such that equilibrium will not be reached until all the water is gone. How long this take will depend on temperature and pressure, the higher the temp the greater the vacuum the quicker..... However the risk you take is further damage to the board.

Using a vacuum in a board which has extra holes drilled in will be fairly pointless and the rate of evaporation will be purely temp related as the pressure will be constant. Although a powerful pump may increase airflow enough to effect more efficient evaporation, but due to construction and small holes flow will be poor and this method will not be as effective as a vacuum.

DunkO
NSW, 1146 posts
24 Jan 2012 7:01PM
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as barn correctly stated a low vac will not boil of the moisture, well not for a very long time. a deep vac will boil off moisture but crush the board. as i was watching heaps of moisture was pouring out of the vac and as it was only dry nitro (contains no moisture) was entering the board, the method being used was working perfectly.

BenKirk
NSW, 600 posts
24 Jan 2012 7:12PM
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geez Dunk, un-salvagable?

you coming to gerroa for the comp on the weekend? if so, do you need to borrow a big lads wave board (just do up the screw)?

barn
WA, 2960 posts
24 Jan 2012 5:28PM
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DrJ said...

Also those that say a vacuum pump won't work because the system will reach equilibrium are wrong. Equilibrium will only be reached in a closed system, attaching a pump that constantly draws a vacuum will remove any water vapor such that equilibrium will not be reached until all the water is gone. How long this take will depend on temperature and pressure, the higher the temp the greater the vacuum the quicker..... However the risk you take is further damage to the board.


We aren't wrong.

Once you pull half an atmosphere, the pump switches off.. When the pump is no longer sucking air you have a closed system.. You reach equilibrium. Perhaps Stehg can back me up?

Equilibrium is reached when as many molecules of of H20 leave the liquid state as enter the liquid state. The amount leaving/entering depends on the partial pressure..

So when the partial vacuum is pulled, the pump switches off and the body of water happily exchanges molecules with the remaining air in the board. The pump never turns back on, as the pressure inside stays the same. There is no Gas leaving the board.



Using a vacuum in a board which has extra holes drilled in will be fairly pointless and the rate of evaporation will be purely temp related as the pressure will be constant. Although a powerful pump may increase airflow enough to effect more efficient evaporation, but due to construction and small holes flow will be poor and this method will not be as effective as a vacuum.


No it's related to the temp and the relative humidity of the surrounding air. Mark's technique of drying the air 1st, and Formula Nova's technique of heating the board make use of this principle.

Basically, you want to replace the air inside the board as many times as possible. Without a hole, the air doesn't even get replaced once.

-------------------


DunkO I can't believe you blew the board up. What a disaster!


doggie
WA, 15849 posts
24 Jan 2012 5:44PM
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This is a great thread, its keeping barn out of general

DrJ
ACT, 481 posts
24 Jan 2012 8:53PM
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Sorry barn, even if your pump is controlled electronically such that when it reaches a certain pressure it switches off, what will happen then, is that water will evaporate filling the vacuum with water vapor, this will change the pressure such that the pump will come back on removing the water vapor and starting the process all over again and so on until the water is gone.

Scientists, chemist, and engineers have been using this method to remove water and solvents from system for decades if not centuries. And the efficacy of the process is directly related to temp and pressure, greater temp requires less vacuum, and vice versa.

barn
WA, 2960 posts
24 Jan 2012 6:21PM
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DrJ said...

Sorry barn, even if your pump is controlled electronically such that when it reaches a certain pressure it switches off, what will happen then, is that water will evaporate filling the vacuum with water vapor, this will change the pressure such that the pump will come back on removing the water vapor and starting the process all over again and so on until the water is gone.



Ohhh I'm gad it's not me digging holes for once!!


I'll refer you back to the vapour pressure chart. At 30 degrees, evaporation will only exceed condensation when the partial pressure of water vapour is less than 4.2kpa..

Your technique will work when the vacuum pump pulls a pressure of less than 4.2kpa. Until that happens, the system will chill out at equilibrium.

Do I really need to point out that you shouldn't try pull a vacuum of 4.2kpa?



Scientists, chemist, and engineers have been using this method to remove water and solvents from system for decades if not centuries. And the efficacy of the process is directly related to temp and pressure, greater temp requires less vacuum, and vice versa.


You're right it's related to temp and pressure. And I agree, before scientists were corrupt, they did use this technique, it does work..

Just look at the chart, all the info is there. Let's heat our enclosed system to 60 degrees, the partial pressure is now 19.9kpa. So to get the water to exceed equilibrium inside this partial vacuum, the vacuum pump needs to pull 19.9kpa.




When the pressure drops below 19.9kpa, the equilibrium cannot be met, and the water will boil filling the chamber with water vapour, which the vac pump can suck until all the water is gone.

The water needs to boil. We can get the water to boil by heating it up, or by dropping the pressure. If you don't do either of these enough, you'll get an equilibrium.

Unfortunately you still cannot pull 19.9kpa on a board otherwise you'll flatten it. I haven't pointed this out because I assumed everybody knew this minor detail. That's a 5th of an atmosphere.

The scientists who use this method are evacuating closed systems that are able to take the pressure.

You could safely pull a vacuum to 70kpa, but then you need to heat the board up to 90degrees. Good luck with that, might as well scratch the pump and heat it to 100degrees.

Am I right yet?

DrJ
ACT, 481 posts
24 Jan 2012 9:39PM
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Barn please explain the following; my garage reaches a max temperature of around 30 degrees there is negligble airflow, yet the puddle of water from my car airconditioner evaporates in less than about 45 mins. By your reasoning my garage must be under a huge vacuum or when I'm not looking reach temperatures of around 100 degrees.

Here is another experiment for you take half a glass of water, mark the water level and pull a sock over the glass place a cupboard .... Amazingly the water disappears, no vacuum, no boiling it must be magic.

Any pump that can maintain the pressure below atmospheric will speed up evaporation and pull moisture

barn
WA, 2960 posts
24 Jan 2012 6:53PM
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DrJ said...

Barn please explain the following; my garage reaches a max temperature of around 30 degrees there is negligble airflow, yet the puddle of water from my car airconditioner evaporates in less than about 45 mins. By your reasoning my garage must be under a huge vacuum or when I'm not looking reach temperatures of around 100 degrees.


No problem! But I need to know the following.

1. Dimensions of your garage.

2. Relative humidity when you shut the garage door.

3. How many millilitres in the puddle.

DrJ
ACT, 481 posts
24 Jan 2012 10:08PM
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You need none of that information to explain it, and if you truly understood the physics rather than having just googled it you would have known that.

SailCoothara
VIC, 137 posts
24 Jan 2012 10:12PM
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I don't think the issue is whether it will or won't. Isn't it more about how quickly the water will evaporate?

Assuming the air isn't completely saturated and the water molecules are in liquid state evaporation will still occur. By adding a vacuum pump and/or air flow you are just speeding up the process. So yes, as long as the air within the garage isn't saturated the air-conditioning puddle will evaporate, as will the cup of water. If you were to seal off the cup completely, the air would eventually become completely saturated and thus the water level wouldn't continue to drop...

Of course there is also the difference between boiling and evaporation...

qldnacra
QLD, 455 posts
24 Jan 2012 9:17PM
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This is starting to sound like a conversation on "The Big Bang Theory". How about we all just remember to do up our vent screws before sailing problem solved

barn
WA, 2960 posts
24 Jan 2012 7:23PM
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DrJ said...

You need none of that information to explain it, and if you truly understood the physics rather than having just googled it you would have known that.



LOL.


No, I need to know the size of the room to know how much evaporation potential the air in the closed system has.

I need to know how much water is in the puddle because we want to know where it all went.

And I need to know the relative humidity, because I need to know how much extra water the air can hold before it's in equilibrium with the puddle.

SailCoothara
VIC, 137 posts
24 Jan 2012 10:23PM
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Doubt the Kiteys have these conversations ;) Just our extreme level of intelligence showing through

FormulaNova
WA, 14808 posts
24 Jan 2012 7:24PM
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SailCoothara said...

I don't think the issue is whether it will or won't. Isn't it more about how quickly the water will evaporate?

Assuming the air isn't completely saturated and the water molecules are in liquid state evaporation will still occur. By adding a vacuum pump and/or air flow you are just speeding up the process. So yes, as long as the air within the garage isn't saturated the air-conditioning puddle will evaporate, as will the cup of water. If you were to seal off the cup completely, the air would eventually become completely saturated and thus the water level wouldn't continue to drop...

Of course there is also the difference between boiling and evaporation...


I think DunkO has found an alternate technique, although I am not sure I would recommend exploding the board and drying it in the sun as a good way to remove moisture from a board...

It would be good to see pictures to see how bad the explosion was. Surely only a bit of it exploded?

(Let the physics wars begin! Although a simple explanation for me would be good)

barn
WA, 2960 posts
24 Jan 2012 7:26PM
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qldnacra said...

This is starting to sound like a conversation on "The Big Bang Theory". How about we all just remember to do up our vent screws before sailing problem solved


Yeah explaining Science is too hard, let's all go kick the dog and watch some TV instead..


It's a wonder we ever got ourselves out of the dark ages with attitudes like that.

FormulaNova
WA, 14808 posts
24 Jan 2012 7:34PM
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barn said...


I'll refer you back to the vapour pressure chart. At 30 degrees, evaporation will only exceed condensation when the partial pressure of water vapour is less than 4.2kpa..

Your technique will work when the vacuum pump pulls a pressure of less than 4.2kpa. Until that happens, the system will chill out at equilibrium.

Do I really need to point out that you shouldn't try pull a vacuum of 4.2kpa?




I am definitely a physics-know-nothing, but doesn't this chart show the positive pressure at a certain temperature, when water is in equilibrium (in a fixed volume)? I.e. if the pressure is lower than that shown, the water will be evaporating more than it will be condensing? (Hey, I spent a minute googling it )

(If I am completely off base, I reserve the right to remove any or all parts of this posting!)

Mark _australia
WA, 22521 posts
24 Jan 2012 7:36PM
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The garage analogy is not good as it is say 100ml of water in 100,000L of air space.

In a board we are talking up to maybe 1 litre of water in a 100L board which probably only has a couple of litres of air space in the styro. The air in the board becomes saturated very quickly and needs dry airflow through it to remove the water - and even better as the pump sucks a bit fater than the air can get in, the reduced pressure helps it vaporise.

DrJ
ACT, 481 posts
24 Jan 2012 10:42PM
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barn said...

DrJ said...

You need none of that information to explain it, and if you truly understood the physics rather than having just googled it you would have known that.



LOL.


No, I need to know the size of the room to know how much evaporation potential the air in the closed system has.

I need to know how much water is in the puddle because we want to know where it all went.

And I need to know the relative humidity, because I need to know how much extra water the air can hold before it's in equilibrium with the puddle.


Lmao you are an idiot you need that information to calculate a rate of reaction, not to explain a principle. You are proof positive that a little bit of information and no real knowledge can be hazardous to your reputation.

DrJ
ACT, 481 posts
24 Jan 2012 10:44PM
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FormulaNova said...

barn said...


I'll refer you back to the vapour pressure chart. At 30 degrees, evaporation will only exceed condensation when the partial pressure of water vapour is less than 4.2kpa..

Your technique will work when the vacuum pump pulls a pressure of less than 4.2kpa. Until that happens, the system will chill out at equilibrium.

Do I really need to point out that you shouldn't try pull a vacuum of 4.2kpa?




I am definitely a physics-know-nothing, but doesn't this chart show the positive pressure at a certain temperature, when water is in equilibrium (in a fixed volume)? I.e. if the pressure is lower than that shown, the water will be evaporating more than it will be condensing? (Hey, I spent a minute googling it )

(If I am completely off base, I reserve the right to remove any or all parts of this posting!)




You are correct ...

Under a vacuum , there is no relative humidity. A vacuum Is an empty space in which there is a substantial absence of anything, typically and relevant to this thread anything being mostly air. Air being typically and mostly comprised of nitrogen and oxygen but also a degree of water.

Taking a board as an example, applying a vacuum to the inside of the board, even a near vacuum using a low power pump, will substantially remove the air. As we all know a void or vacuum is always filled .... Consequently those water molecules with enough energy will leave the body of water and fill the void until there is no vacuum, if the pump is constantly on or has a pressure controller, the vacuum will be maintained and the water vapour removed this will continue until all the water has gone. Because the system is not closed, high vacuum pressure are not needed and there is no risk of collapsing the board, no need to drill holes or mount on a centrifuge.

I am not suggesting that your board wil be dry in an hour but this will depend on the volume of water.

It seems Barn is making an argument against one applying a vacuum to the board, sealing it up ( turn pump off) and expecting the water to magically come out .... Of course this won't work as the water has nowhere to go ... But I don't think anyone is fool enough to expect this to work.

DrJ
ACT, 481 posts
24 Jan 2012 10:50PM
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Mark _australia said...

The garage analogy is not good as it is say 100ml of water in 100,000L of air space.

In a board we are talking up to maybe 1 litre of water in a 100L board which probably only has a couple of litres of air space in the styro. The air in the board becomes saturated very quickly and needs dry airflow through it to remove the water - and even better as the pump sucks a bit fater than the air can get in, the reduced pressure helps it vaporise.


Your method is sound, but as I indicated this method relies on air flow, as I suggested earlier I doubt that a small drill hole would allow for a significant airflow given the internal structure of most boards, certainly I doubt it would be a great deal more efficacious than simply applying a constant vacuum .... But for sure I have never tried it so don't know.

barn
WA, 2960 posts
24 Jan 2012 7:52PM
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OK let's do a hypothetical 'Puddle In Garage' evaporation.


The date is January the 2nd. The temperature is 32.1 and the RH is 29%, it's 3pm.

www.bom.gov.au/climate/dwo/IDCJDW2801.latest.shtml


We have a 1 litre puddle, in a 6x6x3m double garage.

In our garage there are 108 cubic metres of air (6x6x3). At 32.1deg it can potentially hold 32g/m3 before saturation.




www.bom.gov.au/lam/humiditycalc.shtml

32g X 108m3 = 3.456kg of water vapour.

But the relative humidity is 29% when the garage is first shut. So the air in the garage is already holding 1.002kg of water vapour.

29% of 3.456kg = 1.002kg of water

(relative humidity is what the Air is currently holding compared to its potential holding)

--------

In conclusion, in this closed system, Drj's hypothetical garage can soak up his 1 litre puddle, and the humidity will rise to...

100 X ((1.002L + 1.000L) / 3.456L) =

58% humidity.

We can soak up another 1L puddle without it raining.


(sorry I've been out of the loop for a few minutes)

DrJ
ACT, 481 posts
24 Jan 2012 11:03PM
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^^ is that your idea of an explanation ??? You explain nothing, you still have not explained how a puddle evaporates without a vacuum at low temperatures.

All you have proved is that you can use google !

EDIT * Also I never suggested the garage was a closed system indeed if it was it is highly unlikely that the puddle would completely evaporate, this is why bottles of water in supermarket shelves don't become empty over time

barn
WA, 2960 posts
24 Jan 2012 8:05PM
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FormulaNova said...


I am definitely a physics-know-nothing, but doesn't this chart show the positive pressure at a certain temperature, when water is in equilibrium (in a fixed volume)? I.e. if the pressure is lower than that shown, the water will be evaporating more than it will be condensing? (Hey, I spent a minute googling it )

(If I am completely off base, I reserve the right to remove any or all parts of this posting!)




You're correct.

The 'positive pressure' is called teh partial pressure. All the water can see is the water molecules in the air. Under the conditions listed in the chart, molecules evaporating is equal to the molecules condensing. Lot's happening, but nothings changing.

If we drop the partial pressure below the listed vapour pressure. You will get evaporation until it returns to equilibrium.

The pump can only see total pressure, the water sees partial pressure. The pump doesn't care what the water is doing.

DrJ
ACT, 481 posts
24 Jan 2012 11:08PM
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^^^^

Lmfao .... You have no idea whatsoever, you crack me up.

barn
WA, 2960 posts
24 Jan 2012 8:08PM
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DrJ said...

^^ is that your idea of an explanation ??? You explain nothing, you still have not explained how a puddle evaporates without a vacuum at low temperatures.

All you have proved is that you can use google !


Water evaporates if the humidity is lower than its saturation point.

When the humidity is high, nothing evaporates..

DrJ
ACT, 481 posts
24 Jan 2012 11:13PM
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^^^^^^^

Ha ha ha ha .... Seriously you should publish your theories you might win a prize .... "When humidity is high nothing evaporates" that's a gem, it's a **** attempt at an explanation, but it is in itself gold.

barn
WA, 2960 posts
24 Jan 2012 8:19PM
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DrJ said...

^^^^^^^

Ha ha ha ha .... Seriously you should publish your theories you might win a prize .... "When humidity is high nothing evaporates" that's a gem, it's a **** attempt at an explanation, but it is in itself gold.


You're nit picking.. If the humidity is TOO high, nothing evaporates..

BTW can you chill out on calling me an idiot all the time.

FormulaNova
WA, 14808 posts
24 Jan 2012 8:19PM
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barn said...

FormulaNova said...


I am definitely a physics-know-nothing, but doesn't this chart show the positive pressure at a certain temperature, when water is in equilibrium (in a fixed volume)? I.e. if the pressure is lower than that shown, the water will be evaporating more than it will be condensing? (Hey, I spent a minute googling it )

(If I am completely off base, I reserve the right to remove any or all parts of this posting!)




You're correct.

The 'positive pressure' is called teh partial pressure. All the water can see is the water molecules in the air. Under the conditions listed in the chart, molecules evaporating is equal to the molecules condensing. Lot's happening, but nothings changing.

If we drop the partial pressure below the listed vapour pressure. You will get evaporation until it returns to equilibrium.

The pump can only see total pressure, the water sees partial pressure. The pump doesn't care what the water is doing.



So Barn and DrJ agree! Woo hoo! (lighten up fellas, its only a discussion) I now feel that I got it completely wrong and that it really works some other way! Black magic says I!

FWIW I think the discussion went sideways when Barn said:

Your technique will work when the vacuum pump pulls a pressure of less than 4.2kpa. Until that happens, the system will chill out at equilibrium.
(seemingly correct)

Do I really need to point out that you shouldn't try pull a vacuum of 4.2kpa?
(not correct?)

When, (again a physics-know-nothing here) you don't actually need to pull a vacuum of 4.2kpa, you just need to pull a vacuum of something less than that to create nett evaporation? No?

Well, if I learned one two things today, I think it is that you can evaporate water from a board without a hole to let air in, (and the science seems to hold up) AND pressurised Nitrogen is a great way to blow up a board (if you have a flakey regulator).





barn
WA, 2960 posts
24 Jan 2012 8:34PM
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FormulaNova said...

barn said...

FormulaNova said...


I am definitely a physics-know-nothing, but doesn't this chart show the positive pressure at a certain temperature, when water is in equilibrium (in a fixed volume)? I.e. if the pressure is lower than that shown, the water will be evaporating more than it will be condensing? (Hey, I spent a minute googling it )

(If I am completely off base, I reserve the right to remove any or all parts of this posting!)




You're correct.

The 'positive pressure' is called teh partial pressure. All the water can see is the water molecules in the air. Under the conditions listed in the chart, molecules evaporating is equal to the molecules condensing. Lot's happening, but nothings changing.

If we drop the partial pressure below the listed vapour pressure. You will get evaporation until it returns to equilibrium.

The pump can only see total pressure, the water sees partial pressure. The pump doesn't care what the water is doing.



So Barn and DrJ agree! Woo hoo! (lighten up fellas, its only a discussion) I now feel that I got it completely wrong and that it really works some other way! Black magic says I!

FWIW I think the discussion went sideways when Barn said:

Your technique will work when the vacuum pump pulls a pressure of less than 4.2kpa. Until that happens, the system will chill out at equilibrium.
(seemingly correct)

Do I really need to point out that you shouldn't try pull a vacuum of 4.2kpa?
[/i](not correct?)

When, (again a physics-know-nothing here) you don't actually need to pull a vacuum of 4.2kpa, you just need to pull a vacuum of something less than that to create nett evaporation? No?

Well, if I learned one two things today, I think it is that you can evaporate water from a board without a hole to let air in, (and the science seems to hold up) AND pressurised Nitrogen is a great way to blow up a board (if you have a flakey regulator).

Yes, pulling a vacuum of less than 4.2kpa would boil the water, and it will fill the board up with water vapour as fast as you can pump it out.

Pulling a vacuum less than 4.2kpa (let's say 3.5kpa) would mean there is 100kpa on the OUTSIDE OF THE BOARD..

THIS MEANS THERE IS A TOTAL OF 97kpa ON THE OUTSIDE, PUSHING IN!!!..

That means there 100,000 pascals per square metre. A pascal is a 10th of a kilogram, so there is 10,000 kilograms per square metre of board.

Formula Nova, you would need to apply this pressure to a board before the water will boil. We all know a board cannot take this force.

The science doesn't hold up.

An Air conditioning system does not have many square metres, it can take it.

If Drj has gotten this far, he should point out where I'm being an idiot.



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"sailing with the plug out !!" started by DunkO