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sailing with the plug out !!

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Created by DunkO > 9 months ago, 23 Jan 2012
Ian K
WA, 4048 posts
24 Jan 2012 8:43PM
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DrJ said...


You are correct ...

Under a vacuum , there is no relative humidity. A vacuum Is an empty space in which there is a substantial absence of anything, typically and relevant to this thread anything being mostly air. Air being typically and mostly comprised of nitrogen and oxygen but also a degree of water.

Taking a board as an example, applying a vacuum to the inside of the board, even a near vacuum using a low power pump, will substantially remove the air.


Not too many numbers there Dr J, but "substantially removing the air" is a dangerous thing to do to a board. As the table above shows, at 30 degrees water vapour over liquid water will only provide a pressure of 4.2 kPa. The board will collapse, so you always have to have some ordinary old O2, and N2 in there to hold it at at least 75kPa in there to stop it collapsing.

There is an old demonstration with a kerosene tin. Water in the tin is vigorously boiled so there is nothing but water vapour in it. The lid is put on and the tin allowed to cool. Well before it comes down to 30 degrees the pressure of the water vapour drops enough to crush the tin.

The interesting thing about water evaporating is that it does so based on the partial pressure of water vapour above it, not the total pressure. Conversely the vacuum pump operates on total pressure, it can't separate out the water!

So the trick is to lower the partial pressure of water vapour below saturation, (< 4.2 kPa) so evaporation occurs, but maintain the total pressure of the board at > 75 kPa so it doesn't collapse.

The best way to do this is to pass dry air through the board.

DrJ
ACT, 481 posts
24 Jan 2012 11:45PM
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Barn ....Again you are demonstrating a half baked incomplete understanding of quite basic physics, but never mind hey, because despite not understanding much you are never wrong.

Good night, I would ask you to turn the light of when you leave but clearly you like to leave it on even when no one is home !


FormulaNova
WA, 14666 posts
24 Jan 2012 8:46PM
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barn said...

FormulaNova said...

<snipo>


So Barn and DrJ agree! Woo hoo! (lighten up fellas, its only a discussion) I now feel that I got it completely wrong and that it really works some other way! Black magic says I!

FWIW I think the discussion went sideways when Barn said:

Your technique will work when the vacuum pump pulls a pressure of less than 4.2kpa. Until that happens, the system will chill out at equilibrium.
(seemingly correct)

Do I really need to point out that you shouldn't try pull a vacuum of 4.2kpa?
[/i](not correct?)

When, (again a physics-know-nothing here) you don't actually need to pull a vacuum of 4.2kpa, you just need to pull a vacuum of something less than that to create nett evaporation? No?

Well, if I learned one two things today, I think it is that you can evaporate water from a board without a hole to let air in, (and the science seems to hold up) AND pressurised Nitrogen is a great way to blow up a board (if you have a flakey regulator).

Yes, pulling a vacuum of less than 4.2kpa would boil the water, and it will fill the board up with water vapour as fast as you can pump it out.

Pulling a vacuum less than 4.2kpa (let's say 3.5kpa) would mean there is 100kpa on the OUTSIDE OF THE BOARD..

THIS MEANS THERE IS 97kpa ON THE OUTSIDE, PUSHING IN!!!..

That means there 100,000 pascals per square metre. A pascal is a 10th of a kilogram, so there is 10,000 kilograms per square metre of board.

Formula Nova, you would need to apply this pressure to a board before the water will boil. We all know a board cannot take this force.

An Air conditioning system does not have many square metres, it can take it.




Hey, come on, I was just about ready to switch off the laptop...

Well, what about 4.19Kpa? Would the board take the 0.01Kpa difference? Would this still result in nett evaporation?

Sadly, as my gauge is a vacuum/economy gauge from a car, I think in inches of mercury. (I got a 'proper' gauge with my proper HVAC vacuum pump, but they are scaled way too differently to be used for vacuum bagging.)

I think 28 inches of mercury is a close to a 'complete vacuum', which seems to marry up with your table showing that 760mm of Hg is vapor pressure of water at 100degrees C. is that 1 atmosphere?

Anyhoo, I am sure I use 7 to 14 inches of Hg to vacuum bag stuff to the board, so I am sure it will cope with those pressure differences. Given that you are providing a partial vacuum to the board, surely you would have nett evaporation?

Edit: Barn, I still think you might be arguing that you need to draw a vacuum of close to 4.5Kpa inside the board. You don't. You just need to reduce the pressure inside the board to something less than its partial pressure.



DrJ
ACT, 481 posts
24 Jan 2012 11:48PM
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Ian K said...

DrJ said...


You are correct ...

Under a vacuum , there is no relative humidity. A vacuum Is an empty space in which there is a substantial absence of anything, typically and relevant to this thread anything being mostly air. Air being typically and mostly comprised of nitrogen and oxygen but also a degree of water.

Taking a board as an example, applying a vacuum to the inside of the board, even a near vacuum using a low power pump, will substantially remove the air.


Not too many numbers there Dr J, but "substantially removing the air" is a dangerous thing to do to a board. As the table above shows, at 30 degrees water vapour over liquid water will only provide a pressure of 4.2 kPa. The board will collapse, so you always have to have some ordinary old O2, and N2 in there to hold it at at least 75kPa in there to stop it collapsing.

There is an old demonstration with a kerosene tin. Water in the tin is vigorously boiled so there is nothing but water vapour in it. The lid is put on and the tin allowed to cool. Well before it comes down to 30 degrees the pressure of the water vapour drops enough to crush the tin.

The interesting thing about water evaporating is that it does so based on the partial pressure of water vapour above it, not the total pressure. Conversely the vacuum pump operates on total pressure, it can't separate out the water!

So the trick is to lower the partial pressure of water vapour below saturation, (< 4.2 kPa) so evaporation occurs, but maintain the total pressure of the board at > 75 kPa so it doesn't collapse.

The best way to do this is to pass dry air through the board.




You do not need to apply such large pressures to achieve and maintain a vacuum / near vacuum... The board collapsing argument is moot.

FormulaNova
WA, 14666 posts
24 Jan 2012 8:50PM
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Ian K said...

So the trick is to lower the partial pressure of water vapour below saturation, (< 4.2 kPa) so evaporation occurs, but maintain the total pressure of the board at > 75 kPa so it doesn't collapse.

The best way to do this is to pass dry air through the board.


Dang scientists using these new fangled kilo something or other units.

What happened to inches of mercury!

barn
WA, 2960 posts
24 Jan 2012 8:57PM
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FormulaNova said...
ing a partial vacuum to the board, surely you would have nett evaporation?

Edit: Barn, I still think you might be arguing that you need to draw a vacuum of close to 4.5Kpa inside the board. You don't. You just need to reduce the pressure inside the board to something less than its partial pressure.




But its partial pressure is 4.2kpa.

barn
WA, 2960 posts
24 Jan 2012 9:01PM
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FormulaNova said...
Hey, come on, I was just about ready to switch off the laptop...

Well, what about 4.19Kpa? Would the board take the 0.01Kpa difference? Would this still result in nett evaporation?


The board cannot even get near 50kpa, that's half an atmosphere. 25kpa is one quarter of an atmosphere. 10kpa is one tenth of an atmosphere. 5kpa is one 20th of an atmosphere.

At 5kpa there is too much atmosphere outside the board pushing in. Board goes splat.

FormulaNova
WA, 14666 posts
24 Jan 2012 9:15PM
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barn said...

FormulaNova said...
ing a partial vacuum to the board, surely you would have nett evaporation?

Edit: Barn, I still think you might be arguing that you need to draw a vacuum of close to 4.5Kpa inside the board. You don't. You just need to reduce the pressure inside the board to something less than its partial pressure.




But it's partial pressure is 4.2kpa.



Okay, so maybe I am starting to understand. I was thinking the vapor pressure is relative to ambient pressure, but it isn't right? It is a closed system, so how could it.

So, you would need to lower the pressure inside the board to lower than 4.2kpa to get nett evaporation, which given the outside of the board is now at 101.325Kpa, would be a crushing blow...

Okay, maybe I agree!

What you need is a big strong cylinder to place the board into while vacuuming it down to 4.0 kPA while it has a hole in it...

Anyone got a spare decompression chamber?

I hope the answer is now right, as its now time to turn of the PC. I think I prefer the 'no, you are wrong - shut up type argument' - Its much easier than thinking things through.. my head now hurts'.


d1
WA, 304 posts
24 Jan 2012 9:28PM
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Ah, finally a windsurfing topic worth registering for

I'd say Barn is right - once the pump has reached its nominal vacuum, the liquid and vapor inside the board will also reach equilibrium fairly quickly and will stay this way until the cows come home. Static system. This is in a perfectly "air-tight" board though.

If the board has holes drilled, then the pump will likely not be able to develop much vacuum, so the water will not evaporate quite as easily at the same temperature. However, the movement of new and dry air through the holes will have the triple effect of displacing vapour (and thus encouraging more evaporation); pushing water out mechanically (this is not out of the question, given the Styro core); and importantly - the air/nitrogen molecules will be interacting kinetically on the Knudsen layer (the thin boundary between liquid and vapour) which results in much increased evaporation. The last one is just a fancy way of describing what happens to your swimming pool water level on a windy day.

So IMO, holes and vacuum will be more effective than just vacuum, however, I'm all for spinning, because evaporation will likely leave most of the salts behind. Oh, and if you want to do "just vacuum", i.e. without drilling holes, then a cyclical pumping might be the way to do it, as long as you allow DRY air to enter the board during periods of no vacuum.

And hello everyone!

Subsonic
WA, 3118 posts
24 Jan 2012 9:35PM
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From another thread, not aimed at anyone in particular




Mark _australia
WA, 22377 posts
24 Jan 2012 9:38PM
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Who cares if vacuum can remove the water in theory. We all know you can't get 100% of it out so passing dry air through the board will be SAFE and as effective as any other method, maybe faster maybe slower, but safe and effective.

actiomax
NSW, 1575 posts
25 Jan 2012 7:47AM
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If you want to know all about water there is a book called water by Dr Ball.
The surface of water is always in a constant state of reaction thats why it evporates
sorry to hear about board

Beaglebuddy
1595 posts
25 Jan 2012 6:25AM
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First the board should be weighed and compared to the specified original weight. I'll bet not much water at all has been retained and it's only in the immediate area around the plug.
I am a bit skeptical about a board collapsing from too much vacuum, I think air will find a way to leak in before that happens.
Someone should do an experiment and see if that is even possible.
I have an A/C vacuum pump and an old slalom board I don't want that is in really good shape but it doesn't have a vent plug, any ideas how to connect it?

Sailhack
VIC, 5000 posts
25 Jan 2012 10:09AM
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Wow - just caught up on the whole 'scientific' argument going on here (over my head).



As Beaglebuddy mentioned, if the vent plug was left off after the board was removed from the water, due to the construction of the board, the water shouldn't have travelled far (although I know from experience that the 'pumping' effect from riding a board with the plug out will suck water toward the cells that are compressing/expanding).

Dunko - weigh it, wick it, leave it in a dry place for a few weeks & re-weigh it. A little bit of water won't hurt over a few years, sounds like these guys are a bit precious about their gear. As they say "...they still make 'em".

WindWarrior
NSW, 1019 posts
25 Jan 2012 10:18AM
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DunkO said...





well i totally f#c!ed it up.

went to the loo, then took a phone call and on my return some how the nitogen pressure had gone up. basically it prssurised the board and blew it to pieces.
totally gutted...



Hey Dunko sorry to learn of the demise of your board.
Not wanting to sound like an ambulance chaser or road crash stalker... any chance you can post a pic of the board after the event ?

qldnacra
QLD, 455 posts
25 Jan 2012 9:45AM
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As a practical way of drawing the water out of the board i would put some sort of wick down the vent hole and stick it into the middle of a roll of dunny paper, the paper itself not the roll, or use a chamois folded up with the wick in the middle of it and put heaps of rock salt on top of and around which ever one you use and let osmosis do it's thing. I recon that doing this would make sure that the salinity outside the board is higher than inside and combined with the absorbent medium would draw the water out. Of course you may have to do this a couple of times depending on how much water got in but i think it would work so long as you don't do it on a day with 98% humidity.
I could be totally off the mark here but once the salt crystals inside the board left behind from the water start to dry out aren't they going to try and draw moisture back into the board so that would be my reasoning for increasing salinity outside the board. I've got no evidence to back this up it's just my "dark ages" way of thinking

barn
WA, 2960 posts
25 Jan 2012 9:15AM
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Mark _australia said...

Who cares if vacuum can remove the water in theory. We all know you can't get 100% of it out so passing dry air through the board will be SAFE and as effective as any other method, maybe faster maybe slower, but safe and effective.


Well I care because there is some serious misunderstanding of the theory going on. The board is already toast. We're just waiting for pictures.

I made a video with a solid explanation on how a partial vacuum can evaporate water. Would anybody like me to upload it?

It might jolt Drj's memory.

DunkO
NSW, 1143 posts
25 Jan 2012 1:00PM
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i will post a picture when i stop mourning and can cope with going back to the shed.

to beagle- it definately got a fair amount in. i know this because i already got a lot out and it felt heavier. i don't have any spesific weights as it was a custom.
i can assure you an a/c vac pump would crush the board. it pulls down to 500 microns. one atmosphere is 760000 micron and 0 microns is a vacume (a true vacume is not a phisical possibility, all time and matter would stop, Correct me if i am wrong). so 500 is pretty dam low. we are talking about 0.07 Kpa.this is assuming the board is tight. i think i have proved it was relatively air tight, unfotunately

what i still do not get is how i had three other holes around the board plus vent hole and the nitro inlet and the only thing sealing them was pieces of blue tack?!
that **** is amazing...the board blew up first??

DunkO
NSW, 1143 posts
25 Jan 2012 1:02PM
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qldnacra said...

This is starting to sound like a conversation on "The Big Bang Theory". How about we all just remember to do up our vent screws before sailing problem solved


there in lies the problem...remembering.

DunkO
NSW, 1143 posts
25 Jan 2012 1:03PM
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BenKirk said...

geez Dunk, un-salvagable?

you coming to gerroa for the comp on the weekend? if so, do you need to borrow a big lads wave board (just do up the screw)?



yeah i'll see you down there. i should be good for a board, thanks for the offer.

Sailhack
VIC, 5000 posts
25 Jan 2012 1:11PM
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I can't believe I missed the post where DunkO blew up his board... (must've skipped to page 2)

Ah well, typical seabreeze member (me) browsing, making comments without reading the 'whole' thread.

Pics (post-explosion) would be good though.

barn
WA, 2960 posts
25 Jan 2012 10:43AM
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DunkO said...


what i still do not get is how i had three other holes around the board plus vent hole and the nitro inlet and the only thing sealing them was pieces of blue tack?!
that **** is amazing...the board blew up first??




Think it's all down to the foam in expansion. If you're pulling the board apart, then the weakest link is the bonding of the EPS to itself.

I'd be happy with 75kPa inside a board. I'd be scared to have 110kPa inside a board..

Would be amazing if you did a Gopro timelapse..

dinsdale
WA, 1227 posts
25 Jan 2012 5:19PM
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DunkO said...
all time and matter would stop, Correct me if i am wrong).

Hmmmmm! Now that conjures up possibilities [}:)]. However, I don't think time comes to a halt somehow. And as for matter; in the theoretical complete vacuum there is no matter to come to a halt, what ever that means. Might be confusing that with absolute zero .

This is very hard for me to admit, but having just read the whole thread (been away for a few days), barn is spot on the money, and his numbers fall out pretty much spot on too. There are always slight variations because we're dealing in an ever changing ambient environment, but he's sure close enough to classified as correct.

At the other end of the problem - remembering to do up the plug; The main problem arises when there might be (or possibly usually is) the odd barest hairline cracks in the outer skin of the board. Having heated up the board in the sun (whilst rigging, talking, etc) we then tighten up the plug, launch the board into cold water thereby causing the board to contract somewhat rapidly, creating a partial (relative) vacuum inside the board. If there are any crevices at all water will be sucked into the board.

The absolute ideal (though totally impractical) would to be able to have the board just a little cooler than the water before sealing up the plug and launching the board. This would create a mild (relative) +ve pressure inside the board, thereby precluding the ingress of any unwanted fluid.

2 penneth on your way out please .

king of the point
WA, 1836 posts
25 Jan 2012 5:43PM
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WindWarrior said...

DunkO said...





well i totally f#c!ed it up.

went to the loo, then took a phone call and on my return some how the nitogen pressure had gone up. basically it prssurised the board and blew it to pieces.
totally gutted...



Hey Dunko sorry to learn of the demise of your board.
Not wanting to sound like an ambulance chaser or road crash stalker... any chance you can post a pic of the board after the event ?




Gas beer and bubbling on, i dont know what the worlds coming to ...... im a bit unclear as to where to put my beer down, im sure theres room .......who said windsurfing was boring with out wind,,,,, got that all wrong by the looks of it

R1DER
WA, 1461 posts
25 Jan 2012 7:36PM
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Who cares who's right or wrong about pressure and stuff.
I just want to see Dunkos pics of the exploded boards.
C'mon DunkO show us the carnage!!!!!

Mark _australia
WA, 22377 posts
25 Jan 2012 7:43PM
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DunkO said...

qldnacra said...

This is starting to sound like a conversation on "The Big Bang Theory". How about we all just remember to do up our vent screws before sailing problem solved


there in lies the problem...remembering.




Not if you get into the habit of always doing it up when attaching mast base and releasing it after a sail

If you have a problem remembering at the start you just duct tape it to the mast track or something so you just can't miss it. After a year or so of doing that you can forget taping it and just undo it a turn or so. Then you will start looking for it taped to mast track, remember you don't do that anymore and tighten it up.
I left mine undone once about 10 years ago but have never forgotten since as it becomes a habit. To the point you also look at it before you drop the board in the water as you get so conscious of it

geared4knots
TAS, 2647 posts
25 Jan 2012 11:52PM
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best method is have a CHInook style two bolt deckplate. your bung when fully removed 'clips' into the plate and is just big enough not to fall out. Have used this method for years, along with other mates i have told. the good thing is you caN NOT connect your mast base/go sailing until the bung is removed from the plate!!simple

sausage
QLD, 4873 posts
25 Jan 2012 10:56PM
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geared4knots said...

best method is have a CHInook style two bolt deckplate. your bung when fully removed 'clips' into the plate and is just big enough not to fall out. Have used this method for years, along with other mates i have told. the good thing is you caN NOT connect your mast base/go sailing until the bung is removed from the plate!!simple


+1

DunkO
NSW, 1143 posts
26 Jan 2012 12:36AM
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geared4knots said...

best method is have a CHInook style two bolt deckplate. your bung when fully removed 'clips' into the plate and is just big enough not to fall out. Have used this method for years, along with other mates i have told. the good thing is you caN NOT connect your mast base/go sailing until the bung is removed from the plate!!simple


where was this post three days ago, as you can see that is the base plate i have.

will post photos of the carnage soon, drowning my sorrows at the moment.

Mark _australia
WA, 22377 posts
25 Jan 2012 9:37PM
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geared4knots said...

best method is have a CHInook style two bolt deckplate. your bung when fully removed 'clips' into the plate and is just big enough not to fall out. Have used this method for years, along with other mates i have told. the good thing is you caN NOT connect your mast base/go sailing until the bung is removed from the plate!!simple


Awesome except for the lack of adjustment fore and aft
What we need is the classic single bolt base to have a receptacle for the vent screw that also prevents the rig from being attached!



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"sailing with the plug out !!" started by DunkO