. Are you not able to develop and present a coherent, cogent argument to an impersonal proposition? Certainly the few misleading, emotive statements you placed around doggie's character assassination would strongly suggest not!
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he will be saving termites next
I think you lot all need to chill out. Go find a wave or some breeze ferchrissake. And it's got nuthin to do with the topic.
he will be saving termites next
he will be saving termites next
. Are you not able to develop and present a coherent, cogent argument to an impersonal proposition? Certainly the few misleading, emotive statements you placed around doggie's character assassination would strongly suggest not!.
. Are you not able to develop and present a coherent, cogent argument to an impersonal proposition? Certainly the few misleading, emotive statements you placed around doggie's character assassination would strongly suggest not!.
Select to expand quote
In NZ they have Halal (spelling) slaughtermen that work at the Abatoirs then the export the processed meat to the muslim countries....
Australia has no excuses for not doing this..
This is true
Live export of cattle is inhumane Transporting cattle to the local abattoirs is bad enough they know where they are going and why especially when they get near the place Having that after weeks of suffering transport doesnt say much for a civilised country
Doggie said I was actually bullied at school, so you really know what you are talking about dont you, fool.
So you know what its like for someone bigger than you to hunt you down and be cruel to you horrible feeling hey
Back on track
You know I live about 250meters from some cattle yards every Friday night they truck
them in from the surrounding farmlands and they howl their heads off all night until the auction the next day mostly steers but every now and then they must bring cows and calves in and split them up maybe for veal or something similar, the screaming of the calves for their mothers is nerve racking. The cattle are yarded confined and subjected to electric cattle prods, barking biting kelpies whips yelling shouting and there is some feral redneck farmers down there that given the chance would be just as cruel as any Indonesian
A tragic Topic, but also I can see there is some misinformation here and maybe some info that can be added to it.....
I have been in the agricultural and conservation industries for over 30 years. I have worked in the live export industry and have also exported my cattle to the Middle East and Indonesia... I have been very lucky to be actively involved in wildlife conservation here, in Natal Provence of Sth Africa and Texas. I will note a few observations from personal experience within my fields of Agriculture and Wildlife Conservation.
Firstly in reference to the 4 Corners report “Its a Bloody Business” on the Slaughtering of Australian cattle in several Indonesian Abattoirs – An absolutely sickening and shocking blood disgrace, that leaves me very angry to say the least!!! Our Export Industry is represented internationally by 2 organisations – The MLA [Meat & Livestock Australia] and Live Corp. They develop markets and oversee the markets and represent our interests internationally. The MLA receives a compulsory levy from us in the sale of every animal we commercially sell locally and abroad. With this levy, they fund their non profit operation. There was not even an inkling to us cattle breeders that there were animal welfare issues in Indonesia with their abottoirs! We were always informed all was operating professionally and above board with the best possible welfare practices. As we were to learn from Mondays 4 Corners report, we were mislead in a very brutal, sickening and tragic way for the animals affected! No Aussie cattleman wants to see that happen to his livestock – period! Indonesia will not be receiving any stock from me! The majority of facilities are operating professionally and above board, but as we have seen there are those who are not and this is not acceptable in any number no matter how large or small... Since this disgraceful truth became known to us, we have since learnt that the MLA knew of this barbaric practice for at least 3 years and possibly longer. WA Farmers [Federation] on a visit to Indonesia reported their concerns then to the MLA and it went no further. The RSPCA approached the current Federal Govt about their concerns of animal welfare approx 2 years ago and asked to initiate an investigation. The Govt refused and forwarded it to the MLA. MLA did nothing. A separate independent report to the Federal Govt 18 months ago on the progress of Live Export to Indonesia, came back to Govt with concerns on animal welfare. Nothing was done! The Govt un officially indicated at the time it did not want to upset our trade neighbour... We knew nothing of any report or concerns, MLA shelving this or the shock of the Federal Govts action and lack of. The MLA and this Govt wont see my support anywhere!!!
There is absolutely no excuses for the disgusting actions we witnessed in Indonesian Abattoirs – NONE! Immediate action had to be taken and no more animals sent to these horrific facilities! I have heard reasoning that it is hard to change centuries of tradition – BS!!! The majority of abattoirs have adopted ethical measures in Indonesia and all have here for the Islamic kill process. The Indonesian based abattoirs in question did not and blatantly flaunted it to cameras and guests in a very deliberate and sick way... In this modern world we live in now, many century old cultural traditions are not accepted - Ritual killings, stoning to death of a woman who has an affair or falls pregnant out of wedlock, female castration etc etc. So we dont accept the shocking way we have seen how some abattoirs have operated in the name of their religion and apparent cultural tradition...
People have said that we should be sending packaged beef from Australia to Indonesia. Great idea, we have all wanted this and would be great if it could happen. BUT, the Indonesian Govt has said officially it will not take our packaged meat. This has been the case for years and was stressed again this week. The main reason is cost. They can buy our cattle young and feed and process the cattle cheaper in their country than to pay for it produced and packaged in Australia. That is why Live export exists in its entirety – The countries that receive our livestock do this because they will not pay our expensive labour and production costs our products incur produced here. Thats just a fact. Wish it wasnt so
Addressing certain points I have noticed here -
Australia is not the only country that exports livestock – India and East Africa are big players... Brazil is working to come online in a big way...
Shipping livestock now, is so state of the art and humane, that the annual mortality rates shipping are lower than if the animals were left on farm. Thats a fact!
To compare the footage we saw on 4 corners with cattle processing in Australia is not even on the same page! I have the largest abattoir in the state in my town and another 3 within 40 mins drive and know 1st hand how the process operates. It is not the same – period....
Fences built in an abattoir to stop escaping animals on the processing floor. Not saying its untrue. Never heard of such a thing. So I asked around and came up with the same answers from abattoir workers I know – “never heard of it, must have been a shoddy operation. Couldnt get away with that here”..
Farm killing of livestock – Yes they are bled, as all animals and fish commercially processed are. In reference to sheep, the throat is cut and the spinal cord in one instant motion, sometimes shot first. Cattle shot first. Never seen it any other way and never seen an animal running around bleeding in agony.
Hunting introduced pests – to say that hunting a fox makes no difference is a total is a falsehood! “99% of foxes have never been near a farmers stock, so shooting a fox has no impact on the poor farmers sheep..” That statement is so far out there I wouldnt even know where to start. A near neighbour lost 89 lambs in 5 days due to fox predation last winter. Bating and shooting reduced it to near nil from then on. But they have to keep at it. Ever seen a lamb walking around with ½ a leg missing? Or a live lamb with its back end ripped off or a live Ewe that has been down in a cold storm, couldnt get up and a fox has eaten its rear end? I have – more times than I can remember! “shooting a fox has no impact on the poor farmers sheep”... “The chances the fox you shoot is a Merino killer is next to zero. Your just being a depressed jerk who kills animals for fun, trying to justify it by 'helping the farmers'.. Hero” Yep - amazing statements to make! I think maybe some time on farm and with a few wildlife conservation bodies, including Dept of Conservation and Land Management can assist some people in what “is” happening out there....
“Kangaroos and Emus can be pests because we killed their predators, Thylacine, Dingos were their natural predators along with the aboriginals. The aboriginals replaced the marsupial lion.” Thats not the whole truth, there is more to it. With Australia's massive land clearing that has taken place since colonization and the mass planting of grain and pasture crops annually, the Red and Grey Kangaroo species have excelled with its now numerous feed source! Approx 8 years ago the scientific estimate I was told by my CALM officer was that there were approx 5 times the number of Kangaroos now than there were before the Poms arrived here and colonized, totaling approx 2.5 Kangaroos for ever man woman and child in Australia.
Tho I am not a vegetarian - However, be a vegetarian because you love vegetables is what I say 
That is great... However don't believe you are saving the environment or making the world a better place for the animals within it by being one.... Go for a drive and see how many millions of hectares of wildlife habitat has been destroyed to grow food crops. Find out through you Dept of Primary Industries how many millions of litres of herbicides, insecticide, fungicides and hormones are sprayed onto crops to keep them productive. Go to the CSIRO and ask them to show you maps that show the progression of land clearing over the past century. Then ask for the soil salinity mapping that will show you how much of this valuable copping land is now lost to salinity [No more Crops] and what is expected to be lost over the next 20 and 50 years. 20 years ago the rough guide was approx equivalent of 16 football fields of good land a day is becoming salt affected in the state of Western Australia. Last figures I heard was it is now near 24?... A disaster! I am not against growing food crops, that's just how it is out there...
“I live about 250meters from some cattle yards every Friday night they truck
them in from the surrounding farmlands and they howl their heads off all night until the auction the next day” I am sure they do. When I shift the cows to a new paddock or another farm, they bellow their heads off. When I pull the bulls out of the cows, they bellow their heads off for days. When I wean the calves from cows on farm, they bellow.... Ive been zapped with an electric proder more than once and get accidental shocks from electric fences almost weekly. Never thrills me, but I'm still here... Never seen a whip used in a WA sale yard. Must be an eastern thing...
“Listening to the Country Hour yesterday, a producer up north said he would rather go broke than have his cattle subject to that” I totally agree and have said similar in writing to various players in our export industry and am drafting another letter now for the current Federal Govt and their Agricultural Minister...
That is great... However don't believe you are saving the environment or making the world a better place for the animals within it by being one.... Go for a drive and see how many millions of hectares of wildlife habitat has been destroyed to grow food crops. Find out through you Dept of Primary Industries how many millions of litres of herbicides, insecticide, fungicides and hormones are sprayed onto crops to keep them productive. Go to the CSIRO and ask them to show you maps that show the progression of land clearing over the past century. Then ask for the soil salinity mapping that will show you how much of this valuable copping land is now lost to salinity [No more Crops] and what is expected to be lost over the next 20 and 50 years. 20 years ago the rough guide was approx equivalent of 16 football fields of good land a day is becoming salt affected in the state of Western Australia. Last figures I heard was it is now near 24?... A disaster! I am not against growing food crops, that's just how it is out there...
well said cam0063, not sure your factual points will help some posters on here with their ideology. you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink.
been watching this conversation and some of the misinformation flowing through is a little disappointing ,the personal comments towards each other have me at a lost when someone defends an animal in a way that is meant to be hurtful to a fellow human it gives little claim of a higher morality.
being a beef farmer (our stock isn't exported live) i am very pissed off at MLA as much as i think most beef farmers are, the pictures on 4 corners are not acceptable anywhere.
i have a milking cow in training, that grazes in the paddock beside the house, she bellows and kicks and jumps around as she comes running up for a bucket of grain i didn't realize i was causing her suffering. its prob grain addiction
i kill my own lamb,beef,pork , chickens even for a while we where growing meat rabbits ,but they where poor feed converters
with lamb ,pork and the beef, i shoot them out in the paddock, my way is a little bit of hay or grain so they come up to me head down eating and that the last thing they get to do, nice and relaxed so their meat is tender, when a bullet penetrates the skull and enters the brain an animal standing up will literally drop like a stone, then its a knife to the throat and hang up pronto to bleed, chickens and rabbits arnt so lucky , its a chopped head.
I lived in an Aboriginal community for years and they didn't have the luxury of a corner store or Woolies down the road. Hunting was purely and simply a way of getting a feed. There was the satisfaction that the animal you killed would feed a couple of families. there wasn't much point pontificating about the moral issues surrounding hunting. the rifle was a tool to get the job done with as little suffering to the animal as possible. If a mistake was made, which does happen, the animal was tracked and killed as quickly as possible. You cant beat a kangaroo cooked whole in the coals under a desert night.
'A single fox' can and will eat the tongue, liver or backside out of several lambs in one night and leave them alive to suffer...so, yep it makes a difference shooting that 'single fox'!
Good read cam063, not due to the fact that I agree with pretty much all of what you say, but the fact that it's an educated and informed point of view from 'real experiences...not speculation or false ideology as a result of mainstream emotional targeting propaganda.
Regardless of our differences, it seems like no one is arguing that the treatment of the animals in the original thread topic is barbaric & needs to stop.
"Again, I'm focussing on the act of killing 'One' fox."
You totally lost me! It starts each and every time with "one" Fox and every hunter, farmer and conservation worker is not after - just 'one" fox... Yes they are territorial and they can move into a new vacated area and it can take a long time. But they don't magically appear set ready to go each and every time! For every "one" removed, the impact they have as a group lessens. Basic maths... Keep at it and you have successes, quit and walk away and the conservation of wildlife, environment and farming lose. So I will put the emphasis on "A" Fox as much and "many" foxes....
"It's cowboys using that as an excuse to get their rocks off by killing them."
How do you know they are cowboys??? 2 of my local Forrest Commission [CALM] biologists shoot foxes and feral pigs on duty and off duty. My local Police Sargent shoots feral foxes and pigs off duty. My local Ag Dept guys shoot foxes and feral pigs on duty and off duty and so do my neighbours. I think many a time, they just shoot "one" and many a time - none, but they work to help the control and combined, it works...
"Don't buy pig dogs and a hunting knife, get drunk and tear ass round the bush stabbing s**t."
I have lived on my farm and in my area since 1987 and haven't seen drunks tear assing around the bush stabbing s**t, not once! You are right - many hunters are not being paid to hunt the feral animals that endanger agriculture and native Australia. They are doing it out of their pocket. Farmers too. The state and national Govts cant afford to pay for the control measures that are in use. This is why we now have a wild dog problem in the pastoral and eastern wheat belt areas of WA that is out of control! They stopped paying for fulltime and part time dog hunters years ago and now its a disaster! Tho they will subsidies hunters and farmers where they can, when they can in some parts of rural OZ.
"Wonder how many Joeys get taken by foxes? If we still had Thylacines would you shoot them? I digress.."
I have seen a few joeys attacked by foxes. So it wouldn't be uncommon. Happened to shoot one fox in the process a few years back... As for Thylacines - yeah u did digress! Be a pleasure to see this native return tho...
"Jeez, how many times have you watched "Razorback"?" U got a point there Doggie...
Barn - you definitely need to get off the net, out of your house and into the rural Australia - see the damage that is done to Agriculture and our Native environment by feral animals and talk to the farmers and the various wildlife officers, biologists and scientists out there working on this... You will see the truer picture as a whole. Its not as you describe. I'm going to test the lake waters for a paddle. If I can find booties as its damn cold here in these Hills this morning...
ps: cwamit... Thanks mate. I hear u...
Thanks Sailhack... " Regardless of our differences, it seems like no one is arguing that the treatment of the animals in the original thread topic is barbaric & needs to stop." I agree with you...
It seems oxymoronic to me, humane treatment of animals that will eventually be slaughtered and eaten.
I'm sorry, but there are a couple of outstanding points which need clearing up. How things move on when you're away for a day.
1.
