Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...

Enough is Enough... Please explain?

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Created by GypsyDrifter > 9 months ago, 29 Mar 2010
stamp
QLD, 2770 posts
3 Apr 2010 3:30PM
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pweedas the IRA is/was a staunchly catholic terrorist group, the UDA a protestant one. much of the genocide in african nations is committed by christian tribes. as PR said hitler was a christian, as is dubya. the crusades were christian, and the inquisition. whole peoples in europe have been wiped out in the name of christ, often by some other fanatical splinter group of christians.

and "blend in with our population"? what does that mean exactly? we are a multicultural society, have been since we invaded and always will be.

ginger pom
VIC, 1746 posts
3 Apr 2010 5:51PM
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wave knave said...

'There is nothing to fear except the persistent refusal to find out the truth, the persistent refusal to analyze the causes of happenings.'

D.Thompson


Not only was he a world beating decathlete, he was wise too

Gizmo
SA, 2865 posts
3 Apr 2010 6:34PM
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How about "Protect the North" and NOT allow ANY entry there....from ANY body.
Our front door and welcome mat should be Hobart Tasmania... make it there and if you have the required papers your in....

japie
NSW, 6868 posts
3 Apr 2010 7:56PM
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"You’re obliged to pretend respect for people and institutions you think absurd. You live attached in a cowardly fashion to moral and social conventions you despise, condemn, and know lack all foundation. It is that permanent contradiction between your ideas and desires and all the dead formalities and vain pretences of your civilization which makes you sad, troubled, and unbalanced. In that intolerable conflict you lose all joy of life and all feeling of personality, because at every moment they suppress and restrain and check the free play of your powers. That’s the poisoned and mortal wound of the civilized world" - Mirbeau, Octave

pweedas
WA, 4642 posts
3 Apr 2010 5:26PM
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stamp said...

pweedas the IRA is/was a staunchly catholic terrorist group, the UDA a protestant one. much of the genocide in african nations is committed by christian tribes. as PR said hitler was a christian, as is dubya. the crusades were christian, and the inquisition. whole peoples in europe have been wiped out in the name of christ, often by some other fanatical splinter group of christians.

and "blend in with our population"? what does that mean exactly? we are a multicultural society, have been since we invaded and always will be.


I'm not saying christian nations are any less bloodthirsty than any other cultural group. It's an intrinsic part of human nature to be that way.
I'm saying that because of this well proven fact, it is asking for trouble to mix different cultures in the one group, particularly when one of the cultures harbours views of world dominance.

Fortunately (or otherwise depending on you point of view ) although Australian is a nominally christian nation, when it comes down to it, most don't give a toss about religion so anyone can say anything they like about it. Christianity is in no way fiercely defended.
You definitely CAN'T say that about the muslim community. Just publish a disparaging cartoon on their religion or prophets and set a timer on how long it takes before there is a fatwa issued for your destruction, as some have found.

The result of this is that if you mix a group of people who don't give a toss about their religion with a group of people who fiercely defend theirs, guess what happens?
We end up being their religion.
And as I have previously said, I don't want to live in a muslim country.

It's like inviting people to live in you house. If their culture and values are way different to yours, it will eventually make trouble. You will then be faced with the daunting prospect of either throwing them out, or agreeing to change your way of living to suit them.

The better option is to accept that there is an incompatibility to begin with and to say no thanks when they ask to come in. At least that way, while they will sling insults at you for a short while, it is only while they are trying to come in. After that short phase is finnished there is no more problem.
Basically, that's what John Howard did.
I think he did the right thing.
I'm well aware that there are a lot of bleeding hearts that don't agree, the same as there were a lot of bleeding hearts in England 50 years ago when they were presented with the same problem.
They are paying the price for that past stupidity now.
It would be a shame if we don't learn anything from that.

stamp
QLD, 2770 posts
3 Apr 2010 8:27PM
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the italians and greeks and chinese and vietnamese all assimilated, they adapted to "our culture" within a generation and added their own unique flavours to it. the sky didn't fall in on us.
what makes you think any other culture is different?

Smedg
NSW, 836 posts
3 Apr 2010 10:53PM
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pweedas said...

stamp said...

pweedas the IRA is/was a staunchly catholic terrorist group, the UDA a protestant one. much of the genocide in african nations is committed by christian tribes. as PR said hitler was a christian, as is dubya. the crusades were christian, and the inquisition. whole peoples in europe have been wiped out in the name of christ, often by some other fanatical splinter group of christians.

and "blend in with our population"? what does that mean exactly? we are a multicultural society, have been since we invaded and always will be.


I'm not saying christian nations are any less bloodthirsty than any other cultural group. It's an intrinsic part of human nature to be that way.
I'm saying that because of this well proven fact, it is asking for trouble to mix different cultures in the one group, particularly when one of the cultures harbours views of world dominance.

Fortunately (or otherwise depending on you point of view ) although Australian is a nominally christian nation, when it comes down to it, most don't give a toss about religion so anyone can say anything they like about it. Christianity is in no way fiercely defended.
You definitely CAN'T say that about the muslim community. Just publish a disparaging cartoon on their religion or prophets and set a timer on how long it takes before there is a fatwa issued for your destruction, as some have found.

The result of this is that if you mix a group of people who don't give a toss about their religion with a group of people who fiercely defend theirs, guess what happens?
We end up being their religion.
And as I have previously said, I don't want to live in a muslim country.

It's like inviting people to live in you house. If their culture and values are way different to yours, it will eventually make trouble. You will then be faced with the daunting prospect of either throwing them out, or agreeing to change your way of living to suit them.

The better option is to accept that there is an incompatibility to begin with and to say no thanks when they ask to come in. At least that way, while they will sling insults at you for a short while, it is only while they are trying to come in. After that short phase is finnished there is no more problem.
Basically, that's what John Howard did.
I think he did the right thing.
I'm well aware that there are a lot of bleeding hearts that don't agree, the same as there were a lot of bleeding hearts in England 50 years ago when they were presented with the same problem.
They are paying the price for that past stupidity now.
It would be a shame if we don't learn anything from that.



You are living in the past with sentiments like these. "Stop the hate, Segregate" days are over man! That segregation **** does not, can not and will not ever work! The only way for things to improve is for us to better understand each others views and work together to solve any issues that may arise. To understand others we gotta learn about each other. Best way to learn about others is to be around them and open minded. A whole heap of the violence going on in the world is a function of a lack of understanding of others and therefore an inability or unwillingness to empathise.

GD you're able to solve your own frustrations easier than you think... You started off by saying you're angry (venting) then continuing to say that you don't know much about the issue (My issue as a layperson is I don't have much of a clue about this
situation apart from commonsense, but they say...) This is always going to be a frustrating situation to be in. Go meet some 'boat people' and hear their stories then have a think about what to do to make the situation less frustrating for yourself.

ps @ stamp. good wind today man. you in the area at the mo? i got 2 weeks off

GypsyDrifter
WA, 2371 posts
3 Apr 2010 7:54PM
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FlySurfer said...


@GypsyDrifter: How did the boat call 000?
Hello, hello, hello is this Australia? Please pick us up 120km NW of Christmas Island.


ello ello, I can say this only once...
we would like to come to your country...yes!

and now we have a Minister for Population...WTH?

japie
NSW, 6868 posts
3 Apr 2010 11:33PM
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The Western Force are improving. They led the Bulls last week after around three quarters of the match.

The problem is that they don't know how to finish off opposition teams.

Match detail
We are waiting for the kick off.

The match is underway.

2.00: The Stormers start well but Habana knocks on so the Force have a scrum.

3.00: The Force give away a penalty at the scrum and the Stormers run the ball.

4.00: The Stormers give away a penalty so Peter Grant will have the first kick at the posts for points.

5.00: Grant takes the shot.....He nails it. Stormers lead.

8.00: The Force are defending well.

9.00: Andries Bekker knocks on but the Force have an advantage which they take quickly and they move the ball forward but don't really get anywhere until they knock on.

14.00: The Force swing the ball through their backline - James O'Connor takes the ball twice and this creates space and he passes to David Pocock after sucking in two defenders and Pocock scores under the posts. Great try. Andries Bekker gets a warning for a very late tackle.

15.00: The Force add the conversion and they now lead.

18.00: Schalk Burger gets hit on the head by the ball after a big kick and he goes down. After a break get gets up. Staniforth comes off for the Force.

19.00: Gio Aplon goes down with a knock on the head after a high ball. The Force are awarded a penalty so James O' Connor takes the kick and it's short.

23.00: The Stormers enjoy a spell of attacking rugby but the Force hold them out.

26.00: The Force give away a penalty so Peter Grant takes the kick at posts and nails it.

27.00: The Force are starting to unlock the Stormers defence as Chris O' Young finds space and gets to within 10m of the line but gets caught and then knocks on.

32.00: The Force are controlling possession and keeping the Stormers pinned back in their 25. When the Stormers get the ball they boot it downfield. This time O'Connor goes to catch the ball and knocks on.

35.00: The Stormers are using the high ball to good effect. Hill gathers a ball and passes to O'Connor who takes his eye off the ball and knock it on giving the Stormers an attacking scrum in the Force's half.

37.00: Schalk Burger gets blown up for a big tackle. The Force take a line out.

38.00: Habana gets the ball on the wing and chips up but can't regather.

40.05: The siren goes for half time but the Force have the ball and keep it alive. They get over the 25 and then as they go forward they get a penalty. O'Connor goes for posts. He misses. That's it half time.

The half time score was Force 7 Stormers 6

The second half is underway.

43.00: The Stormers start strongly which puts the Force under pressure.

44.00: The Stormers pressure the ball into the Force's 25. They go forward and Sireli Naqelevuki gets to the line but loses the ball over at the line.

45.00: Ricky Januarie comes off for the Stormers.

47.00: The Force give away a penalty so the Stormers get a chance to take the lead after a vastly improved peformance in the second half.

48.00: Grant takes the kick and nails it.

51.00: The Stormers give away a penalty this time but it's too far to kick for posts so the Force kick for touch.

53.00: Schalk Burger gives away a penalty so the Force get the chance to take the lead.

54.00: James O' Connor takes the kick and nails it.

58.00: The Force get another penalty but it's long range so David Hill takes the kick and misses.

61.00: It's a game of penalties this one is folks. The Force give away a penalty this time so as Gio Aplon gets some more medical attention Peter Grant takes the kick and he nails it. Great kick.

63.00: Richard Brown and Matt Dunning comes on for the Force.

64.00: The Force use their boot to good effect and it gets them down in the Stormers half. The Stormers however boot the ball back. We go back for a penalty though. Burger gets a final warning. O' Connor will take the penalty kick.

65.00: O' Connor nails the kick and the Force lead again.

68.00: Another penalty. The Stormers this time so Peter Grant nails it to make it five from five.

69.00: As both teams are giving away so many penalties Dickinson has some words with captains Burger and Sharpe.

70.00: As the Force work the ball upfield Bekker gets the ball and bolts off towards the line and passes.....to no one. The ball rolls out.

74.00: Bekker gives away a penalty but the Force have to kick for touch. The Stormers however win the line out. The Force look a little hungrier for this match.

76.00: The Force build some pressure in the Stormers half. They start to look good but give away a penalty so the Stormers clear the ball.

77.00: Pieter Louw gives away a penalty on the half way line so the Force get a penalty. A little reluctant David Hill takes the kick and misses.

80.05; As the siren goes for full time the Stormers give away a free kick. The Force have no choice but to scrum.

81.00: The Force win the scrum and run the ball. They swing the ball out to David Hill who bangs over a drop goal to win the match ! The Crowd goes NUTS ! The Force win.


The full time score is Force 16 Stormers 15

bored
WA, 43 posts
3 Apr 2010 11:07PM
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i miss the old days where we just ignored the fact that they landed on Australian shore and then had a 50 mile hike to the nearest town. if they made it you knew they where hard workers.

FlySurfer
NSW, 4453 posts
4 Apr 2010 11:03AM
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Australia to appoint population minister; develop strategy... strategy like the Sydney metro

Australia's population could grow by more than 50 percent to around 35 million in the coming decades, from its current level of around 22 million, fuelled largely by immigration....


Dang! I better buy some property while it's still cheap .

pweedas
WA, 4642 posts
4 Apr 2010 1:46PM
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poor relative said...

Your statement is racist


Rellie, that's the line most commonly used by those who are trying to establish their culture over the top of someone else's. If we don't accept it and try to maintain our own then we are called racists.
I don't accept that reasoning.
It's a matter of this. "We are happy with our culture and we don't want to live by yours."
That is not racist.



Essentially what you are saying is if your not anglo-saxon christian then you present as a threat to 'our' way of life - arent we multicultural?


Not at all.
I'm saying that if their culture has a history of creating conflict with the other cultures they live amongst then they should be seen as a threat.


What is this mystical Aussie way of life anyway and who defines it ?


Well there's part of the problem isn't it?
If we don't appreciate how great our way of life is here compared to the way of life that exists under the regimes of these other cultures, then we don't see any need to protect it do we.
Have a look at what we have got here. It's worth keeping. Don't chip away at the edges. Don't dilute it down.


Oh and don't forget Hitler was a christian.

Totally irrelevant really.
If Hitler was seeking approval for immigration I would definitely say no that. Same for Idi Armin and numerous other christian despots, or anyone like them.
But at this point in time they are not so they are irrelevant to the discussion.



Segregation breeds contempt and starts wars.



Segregation WITHIN A COUNTRY breeds contempt and starts wars. YES.
That's what half of these conflicts are all about.
But these are often solved by splitting off the different cultures into separate states or countries.
Isn't that what most many of these conflicts are seeking to do?
Separate Palestinian state?
Separate independent Chechnyan state?
Separate Tamil state?
Separate Kurdish state?
etc etc etc. The list is a long one.
I would NOT want to see Australia go that way in another 100 years or so.



I guess living in Australia and Ch7 news or today tonight being your main source of international affairs has its downsides.



Definitely NOT my main source of information. Channel 7 news?? Phfffff!

ABC /SBS news maybe.
Numerous excellent and in depth docos on ABC, SBS, National Geographic, Foxtel History channel, etc.
Also numerous articles on the analysis of these problems on the internet.
Have a look.


Problems in Sudan Darfur have nothing to do with culture,


While the underlying cause of the problems in the Sudan are probably not cultural, the cultural differences usually end up being the focal point of the eventual conflict and the fighting ends up being along that divide.
Thus the Sudan/Darfur conflict is now a northern arab muslim vs western non arab muslim conflict.
And mixed in with the non arab muslims is a significant african christian population which tends to make the actions by the predominantly arab muslim government more justifiable in their eyes.


Makes you wonder if the west had a stake in Sudaneese oil whether there would be more western intervention?


It probably would because a reliable oil supply is essential for world stability at the moment.
This is an accusation levelled at the US regarding it's actions in Iraq. It was said that they just wanted to take their oil.
However, when the Iraqi oil contracts were recently put up for auction, the US took none of them. That is ZERO (0) NONE of them. Sort of deflates that argument doesn't it?
(But I do think the Iraq invasion was TOTALLY wrong and I didn't support it, and still don't)


There is heaps of reliable information available on all this stuff on the internet.
You might like to look some of this up for yourself before you thumb away on the red thumbs tag.

What the heck. Thumb away first if you like but do yourself a favour and do a bit of research on it later.
Obviously, by the severe red thumbing I've got, most people don't agree with me.
That's you right and I don't mind. But I do hope that the thumbing is done from an informed point of view rather than just a warm fuzzy "lets be nice to everyone and invite them in" perspective.

I know some sites are biased but many are not and they provide a factual analysis of the situation
You can start here

www.globalpolitician.com

Which basically says;
"If we try to provide an analysis of conflicts around the world, two patterns emerge. One relates to ethnicity, and the other relates to religion. Religion still forms the basis of major conflicts worldwide as in Israel-Palestine, although in case of India-Pakistan and Russia-Chechnya, the religious roots of such conflicts tend to have a close association with Islamic separatism"

*******************
How about a few examples.

Some of the world's current "hot spots" which have as their base a significant component of religious intolerance are listed below:

Country and Main religious groups involved:

1. Afghanistan Extreme radical Fundamentalist Muslim terrorist groups & non-Muslim Osama bin Laden heads a terrorist group called Al Quada (The Source) whose headquarters were in Afghanistan.
2. Bosnia Serbian Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholic, Muslims
3. Cote d'Ivoire Muslims, Indigenous, Christians
4. Cyprus Christians & Muslims
5. East Timor Christians & Muslims
6. Indonesia, province of Ambon Christians & Muslims
7. Kashmir Hindus and Muslims 8. Kosovo Serbian Orthodox Christians, Muslims
9. Kurdistan Christians, Muslims Assaults on Christians (Protestant, Chaldean Catholic & Assyrian Orthodox). Bombing campaign underway.
10. Macedonia Macedonian Orthodox Christians & Muslims
11. Middle East Jews, Muslims, &Christians
12. Nigeria Christians, Animists, & Muslims 13. Pakistan Suni & Shi'ite Muslims
14. Philippines Christians & Muslims
15. Russia, Chechnya Russian Orthodox Christians, Muslims. The Russian army attacked the breakaway region. Muslims had allegedly blown up buildings in Moscow. Many atrocities have been alleged.
16. Serbia, province of Vojvodina Serbian Orthodox & Roman Catholics
17. Sri Lanka Buddhists & Hindus Tamils
Additional conflicts
18. Sudan: Arab muslims & non arab muslims
19. Thailand: Pattani province: Buddists and Muslims
20. Bangladesh: Muslim-Hindu (Bengalis) and Buddists (Chakmas)
21. Tajikistan: intra-Islamic conflict

I don't see any evidence that Australians could manage these disputes better than everyone else.
When I see the way we get into ridiculous arguments about such trivial issues such as which is better, Windsurfing or kiting, Eagles or Dockers, Ford or Holden, blah blah ad infinitum squabble squabble bicker bicker, followed by abuse and insults, followed by {lock topic}, I hardly imagine that we would be a model of restrained reasoning regarding deep cultural disputes.
Maybe you think differently?
Happy Easter. (With apologies for those of different cultural beliefs that might find that salutation offensive)


stamp
QLD, 2770 posts
4 Apr 2010 5:33PM
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pweedas i think you are missing the point that we don't actually have a deep rooted culture of our own, we are a multicultural society comprised of a completely mongrel mix of races.

you keep referring to this mythical "way of life" you need to defend to the death. i assume you are referring to the scraps of british culture some of us still cling to despite being recent arrivals ourselves. 200 odd years is nothing, our society and culture is still in its infancy and is constantly shaped by new migrants, wherever they are from. who are you to refuse someone entry on the basis of their beliefs? you are a recent arrival too.

if you want to defend the aussie way of life then head bush and do something to help the poor bastards we displaced when we arrived en masse.
in boats and uninvited, i might add

pweedas
WA, 4642 posts
4 Apr 2010 4:36PM
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stamp said...

pweedas i think you are missing the point that we don't actually have a deep rooted culture of our own, we are a multicultural society comprised of a completely mongrel mix of races.

you keep referring to this mythical "way of life" you need to defend to the death. i assume you are referring to the scraps of british culture some of us still cling to despite being recent arrivals ourselves. 200 odd years is nothing, our society and culture is still in its infancy and is constantly shaped by new migrants, wherever they are from. who are you to refuse someone entry on the basis of their beliefs? you are a recent arrival too.



That point I have not missed and I think I have mentioned that it is part of our problem.
Apparently I haven't put it very well, or perhaps it has got lost in all the blurb.
You are so VERY right when you say "we don't actually have a deep rooted culture of our own".
That is the reason why we can be so easilly changed by a small number of people who do have a deep rooted culture of their own and are prepared to "defend it to the death".
Our culture is an easy going "she'll be right mate" culture which takes the view that everything will take care of itself. It doesn't. If you want to hold on to something worthwhile you have to define boundaries and limits and then defend them.

I also agree with you when you say "our society and culture is still in its infancy and is constantly shaped by new migrants".
I have no problem with that and I think generally it is a good thing.
It is not a good thing if the incoming culture swamps the resident culture or if there is a well established history of that culture coming into conflict with the resident cultures.
You are also right when you say "you are a recent arrival too."
My family has been here about 100 years now, not very long compared to 40,000 years. If the original inhabitants had their way they might ask me to leave now, along with all the other "recent arrivals".
But you see, the point I am making is, they are too late. They no longer have that option. We are here and we are well established.
They should have made that decision 200 years ago and defended it. There are reasons why they didn't but it's pointless dragging that into this discussion here.
Do you see any similarities and lessons, because there are and they do apply here.

Maybe in another 100 years when the next generation are fighting over whether our women should have to wear a tent when in public, or whether we should be allowed to drink beer or not, or whether we should be allowed to eat in daylight hours during ramadan, or whether our ayatolla should be elected on bloodlines or not, (sounds silly doesn't it but that's always good for a civil war), we might then wonder what sort of stupidity gripped our generation which would make us throw our doors open to all and sundry when there were such clear indications that it had the high probability to create strife.

In another thousand years when we have managed to rise above all of this, (and I think by then we definitely will) then by all means, open the borders, throw away the visas and welcome everyone in. But it is abundantly clear from everything I see that we are not there yet.

Incidentally, I am somewhat encouraged by the fact that so far on this topic, it has not degenerated into insults and personal abuse, even though I have said things that many people obviously disagree with.
Thanks for that.

JayBee
NSW, 714 posts
4 Apr 2010 7:13PM
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For once I am not embroiled in a SeaBreeze ****fight. And reading some of the above I am really glad I am not.

Is there a shortage of wind this weekend that keeps people at their keyboards?

JB

poor relative
WA, 9089 posts
4 Apr 2010 5:32PM
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pweedas said...

Rellie, that's the line most commonly used by those who are trying to establish their culture over the top of someone else's. If we don't accept it and try to maintain our own then we are called racists.
I don't accept that reasoning.
It's a matter of this. "We are happy with our culture and we don't want to live by yours."
That is not racist.


I agree with you the only word abused and misconstrued more than Racism is Culture.
Racism as defined by dictionary.com as
1. A belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. A policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. A hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

I interpret your previous statement as racist as you acceopt some cultures and say 'you'll be right' however you denounce other cultures on the basis of religion. You cannot judge an entire race of peoples on their religion - not all muslims are terrorists.

pweedas said...
I'm saying that if their culture has a history of creating conflict with the other cultures they live amongst then they should be seen as a threat.


show me a culture that doesnt have a history of violence.
anyway violence preceeds religion and will find expression wherever available.


pweedas said...

If we don't appreciate how great our way of life is here compared to the way of life that exists under the regimes of these other cultures, then we don't see any need to protect it do we.


Our life here is indeed fantastic out of all the countries i have lived in or visited - and there are many - australia is my fave. Thats why i am here.
why - well i'd say multi culturalism wandering into a food hall for instance - malay food, Pizza, Turkish kebabs, Thai food, japanese, Roast dinner, etc etc etc - imagine if we didnt have that.
What about china town in Melbourne all the amazing restaraunts there the interesting artifacts yum chai ?sp. the fascinating people.
What about your local 'overseas restaraunt' ever had a chat and built a relationship with those people.
Now thats Australia - the days of Indigenous people being considered nothing more that flower and fauna have gone. The all white migration policy - gone. We're multicultural get used to it embrace it it aint changing.
Thats progress.
Where people regardless whether they praise allah, seek enlightenment or like it in the bum are free to live the way they want in this country.
Thats Australia.

However wouldn't it be nice to see a country like Australia leading the way in multiculturalism and doing things unheard of in other western countries like celebrating all the main festivals of all the most popular religions - thats what they do in India.
My family are full of tales of Ramadan, Holi, Diwali, Eid ul Fitr, Lohri etc etc


pweedas said...
so they are irrelevant to the discussion.



In the context that you lauded christianity as being an untainted religion then yes the reference to hitlar was relevent.


pweedas said...


I would NOT want to see Australia go that way in another 100 years or so.



Why would it?
Its paranoid to believe it would.

[

pweedas said...
I'm saying that if their culture has a history of creating conflict with the other cultures they live amongst then they should be seen as a threat.


show me a culture that doesnt have a history of violence.
anyway violence preceeds religion and will find expression wherever available.


pweedas said...

Definitely NOT my main source of information. Channel 7 news?? Phfffff!

ABC /SBS news maybe.
Numerous excellent and in depth docos on ABC, SBS, National Geographic, Foxtel History channel, etc.
Also numerous articles on the analysis of these problems on the internet.
Have a look.



i apologise i was tounge in cheek and probably being rude
Myself - i am a book/doco addict.

pweedas said...

While the underlying cause of the problems in the Sudan are probably not cultural, the cultural differences usually end up being the focal point of the eventual conflict and the fighting ends up being along that divide.



It's easier for media to define the problems as purely religion - everyone understands.
Whilst religion plays a part its often not the primary cause.

pweedas said...
look some of this up for yourself before you thumb away on the red thumbs .


LOL i never ever have red thumbed - ask laurie if you don't believe.
I prefer to discuss


pweedas said...

Some of the world's current "hot spots" which have as their base a significant component of religious intolerance are listed below:
.....
I don't see any evidence that Australians could manage these disputes better than everyone else.



If you look into those conflicts a bit more you will find that there is a lot more to it than purely religion fighting religion.

...and i agree Happy easter

FlySurfer
NSW, 4453 posts
4 Apr 2010 9:45PM
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JayBee said...

For once I am not embroiled in a SeaBreeze ****fight. And reading some of the above I am really glad I am not.

Is there a shortage of wind this weekend that keeps people at their keyboards?

JB



Even worse, it's damn day light NOT savings

elbeau
WA, 986 posts
4 Apr 2010 7:54PM
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stamp said...

pweedas the IRA is/was a staunchly catholic terrorist group, the UDA a protestant one. much of the genocide in african nations is committed by christian tribes. as PR said hitler was a christian, as is dubya. the crusades were christian, and the inquisition. whole peoples in europe have been wiped out in the name of christ, often by some other fanatical splinter group of christians.

and "blend in with our population"? what does that mean exactly? we are a multicultural society, have been since we invaded and always will be.


A Christian by definition is someone who follows the teachings of Christ.
IE Love your neighbor, turn the other cheek etc.
Claiming to be a Christian doesn't make you one.
Believing in Christs teachings and doing them does make you a Christian.
By no stretch of the imagination was Hitler a Christian, nor are the bloody savages that claim that name in Africa or Ireland or anywhere else.

GypsyDrifter
WA, 2371 posts
4 Apr 2010 7:58PM
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Christmas Island not full yet, says Rudd

Updated Sat Apr 3, 2010 7:51pm AEDT
Christmas Island Detention Centre

Kevin Rudd says there is still room at Christmas Island's Dention Centre.

Prime Minister Kevin Rudd says there is still capacity for more asylum seekers in the Christmas Island detention centre.

So far 102 boats carrying asylum seekers have arrived in Australian waters this year, with 79 people arriving on the latest boat intercepted at Ashmore Reef on Friday.

The Government had previously indicated it had space for around 2,040 people in the detention centre, but the Department of Immigration says there are now 2,067 asylum seekers on the island.

Mr Rudd says there is room for more.

"The advice I have this morning is that capacity remains on Christmas Island," he said.

The department says a new building under construction will accommodate an extra 400 people by the end of the month.

WTH???? Good Grief.... That Last statement is simply stupid...so they are expecting at least another 400...2500 foreigners on and island + only 1500 locals..

I would love to know what the locals think of the boat people.

4th April 2010...another 50 asylum seeks picked up near Ashmore Reef.


Ok another 350 people to go and then the detention center will be full ...sheeeze

poor relative
WA, 9089 posts
4 Apr 2010 8:47PM
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GypsyDrifter said...

I would love to know what the locals think of the boat people.



You just don't get it do you GD?
What about the kids that are being locked up?
What about the people escaping persecution torture etc being locked up?

Your passions should be about that if you "love people" as you claim.

DL
WA, 658 posts
4 Apr 2010 9:55PM
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GypsyDrifter
WA, 2371 posts
4 Apr 2010 10:11PM
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poor relative said...


You just don't get it do you GD?
What about the kids that are being locked up?
What about the people escaping persecution torture etc being locked up?

Your passions should be about that if you "love people" as you claim.


PR...as I was so very lucky to be born in OZ...so that means I am in a country that I can say and think what I want.

Tell me why I have to think like you?

I don't, I am me these are my feelings and facts that I deal with...

Smedg
NSW, 836 posts
5 Apr 2010 12:18AM
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pweedas...... Man, you've listed a lot of examples of conflict from all over our ever more closely connected world.
I know you can't think that Australia can 'protect its she'll be right mate way of life' by not letting refugees (or boat people) in. That would be ignorant. You've referred to culture and religion as major contributing factors to many world conflicts, many would agree. (like all problems however, it can help to consider other complexities)

However the sentiments that elbeau has expressed reminds me that the vast majority of followers of all major religions share similar beliefs about important human values.

It's usually misplaced or misrepresented 'beliefs' followed to an extreme without compassion or understanding of others involved that leads to conflict. These extreme beliefs seem best fostered in times of fear. Fear that relies on lack of understanding and empathy for others involved.

I really think that as our community becomes far less isolated and far more interconnected world wide, the only positive steps forward will be based on our inherent ability as humans to empathise, understand and come to mutually satisfactory solutions to our problems.

People, religions and cultures will not work more smoothly or less violently if kept in their place as you seem to suggest. We need to value and learn from each other. Even in Aust we have race, culture and religion related violence that I'm sure you'll agree needs dealing with. Don't get me wrong, I love our country, and i'm not trying to compare us to war zones. Just pointing out that these problems aren't other peoples problems, they are also our own. We need to love the rest of the world we live in too.. We need to work towards solving all our problems locally and world wide, not just avoid people with different backgrounds and hope the problems don't annoy us.

In case you worry about your words not being read because your posts are so long, rest assured I'll keep reading them and contributing myself whilst on hols.

FlySurfer
NSW, 4453 posts
5 Apr 2010 9:35AM
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OK, I'm going to explain the whole deal to y'all.

We're living in a world that was shaped after WWII. My grandparents fought on the side of the Allies and we won. BUT the group that really won was the group that brought the Allies together.

We made deals; America got the atom bomb, England retained it's financial power but lost military power, Israel was created out of Palestine, ... there was a complete global geopolitical reshape.

Fast forward 45 years and this group with the fall of Communism have consolidated their power and are now in the position to complete their goal; world domination.

(World domination is the oldest game, its in our genes, every species aspires to it and most free thinking individuals aspire to it.)

As history has shown so many times before, you need to dissolve borders, unite the tribes, one ring to rule them all.

So there you have it... no more borders, multiculturalism is here and it aint going away. Doesn't matter how much you protest, vote... sorry but we vote for the people who give us the message; the TV personality not the policy.

So just relax, sit back and watch the show, you can see it in the USA, England/Europe... Allied countries.
USA it's the Mexicans jumping over the barbed wire, in England it's the people running down the channel tunnel, in Australia it's the rickety boats.

Sydney's population went from 3,366,542 in 2001 to 4,399,722 in 2008... and most of them didn't come by boat.

Sydney was so good back in 2001 , light traffic, rents were cheap, you could go to a Woolies and not have to queue up for 20mins only to be served by somebody who can't speak English.

If you don't like it... well we have "terrorism laws" for the insubordinate.

Boat people want a better life; I guess we should be grateful we enjoy that better life... not too sure they're fleeing repression, those folks usually just run to the nearest boarder.

I want a better life; I think I'm going to gate crash one of James Packer's mansions... who's with me, we'll take cars?




poor relative
WA, 9089 posts
5 Apr 2010 8:11AM
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GypsyDrifter said...

Tell me why I have to think like you?



You don't have to think like me at all.
We live in a democracy

However if you come onto a public forum and create a contentious topic such as this expect your 'opinion' to be challenged.

You have said in the past couple of pages "i love people" "free the women and children" which completely contradicts the newspaper articles you post.

So how have you developed such a strong opinion?


j murray
SA, 947 posts
5 Apr 2010 9:58AM
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The world is basically still " TRIBAL " and tribals do to each other nowadays,

what they have done to each other for eons, ....., fight for dominance.

The gladiator did it and the football crowd does it still. Religion does it so does

Business. The first settlers did it to the Aboriginies, the Squatter did it to the

workers. The Europeans did it to the English, the Vikings to the Englanders,

the Jewish to the Arabs. Nothing is new. I think maybe I have done it to

others, and I know it has been done to me. Family's do it to family's. The

Whalers did it to the Whales and the sealers to the seals. Fishermen still

practice it as with everyone else. In the END there will be one big doo,

and everyone is invited. That will DOO ME

Smedg
NSW, 836 posts
5 Apr 2010 12:21PM
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j murray said...


The world is basically still " TRIBAL " and tribals do to each other nowadays,

what they have done to each other for eons, ....., fight for dominance.

The gladiator did it and the football crowd does it still. Religion does it so does

Business. The first settlers did it to the Aboriginies, the Squatter did it to the

workers. The Europeans did it to the English, the Vikings to the Englanders,

the Jewish to the Arabs. Nothing is new. I think maybe I have done it to

others, and I know it has been done to me. Family's do it to family's. The

Whalers did it to the Whales and the sealers to the seals. Fishermen still

practice it as with everyone else. In the END there will be one big doo,

and everyone is invited. That will DOO ME



I'm not so sure about this whole basically still tribal sentiment murray. I agree that there is a whole heap of violent stuff going on, but I don't think for one second that thats the way it has to be..

Too often we only hear of duelling solutions. Ie for one group to feel a solution has been reached, the other group must forgo their needs or concerns. Eg. Religion vs Religion, Human rights vs Safety, us vs them etc. The only solution being a win for one side and a loss for the other.

This simplistic view of complex issues is unhelpful. The end result of only considering duelling solutions is either an issue gets ignored as it seems too hard to resolve, or conflict continues as no mutually agreeable options have been considered. If you think about it, no problem big or small is ever solved durably unless the solution addresses the concerns of all involved in a practical and mutually satisfactory way.

This means that for a problem to be durably solved, we must firstly empathise in order to fully understand the views of all involved. This process of coming to understand each other (whilst potentially confronting at times and often long and involved) has the miraculous effect of often solving a whole bunch of problems before they even arise.

As we 'evolve' we have the option of learning more about our world and each other. We have the option of learning from our mistakes.

Between us seabreezians lets agree that we are all at the peak of physical evolutionary perfection... ;) and now work towards ethical evolution. Less banging our head against the wall with us vs them conflicts and more opening our minds to understanding each others views in order to address our problems.

ps our own legal system (eventually) finds the majority of 'boat people' to be refugees.... Refugees need basic human rights like the rest of us. Refugees are likely to need more understanding and help than most.

Perhaps GD, you can come to see that it's not a pattsie country with no backbone that 'proccesses' these refugees but rather a country so fearful of immigrants that we sacrafice/ abuse their human rights before coming to the conclusion that they have already suffered too much of this second rate treatment before getting here.

GypsyDrifter
WA, 2371 posts
5 Apr 2010 11:48AM
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poor relative said...

GypsyDrifter said...

Tell me why I have to think like you?



You don't have to think like me at all.
We live in a democracy

However if you come onto a public forum and create a contentious topic such as this expect your 'opinion' to be challenged.

You have said in the past couple of pages "i love people" "free the women and children" which completely contradicts the newspaper articles you post.

So how have you developed such a strong opinion?



PR ... For me it was a vent as I said front up in the 1st bit of my post...(you know free speech)
it was not meant to be contentious...but as it is...so be it!
The articles I place on this forum are for info only...not to stir the pot.
But again if they do, so be it.

And it is not so much the damaged people risking their lives to come to a new better country as it is..

""I would like the Government to be seen to be doing something about this issue.""

I want this Government (not as in Lib's or Labour) to grow a back bone.

poor relative
WA, 9089 posts
5 Apr 2010 11:58AM
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We are prone to judge success by the index of our salaries or the size of our automobile rather than by the quality of our service and relationship to mankind.

-Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

poor relative
WA, 9089 posts
5 Apr 2010 11:59AM
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GypsyDrifter said...
""I would like the Government to be seen to be doing something about this issue.""

I want this Government (not as in Lib's or Labour) to grow a back bone.



like what??



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"Enough is Enough... Please explain?" started by GypsyDrifter