You lost me eppo, set up and flown on the 4 line bar not sure what you mean by mini fith line. Kite wasnt choked.
After Mondays session I guessing bottom end for me on the 12m would be 15knots on a surfboard at 107kgs.
Yeh I lose myself all the time...ha ha ha
Nah the red safety line then....why I ask is when I rode my new kites it was real slack relative to the front lines. As I got near 20 or so sessions the red safety line is now taught as the front lines have stretched ....giving progressively a better bottom end and closer to the tuning I would normally have. Hence why I didn't adjust the back lines.
107kg, Christ, yeh 15 knots on a SB for sure, you are a big boy!! You'd fly a lot of wings to the edge of the window quickly with that weight, reckon you might want a more grunty kite that sits back a little more, like an evo in the north range anyhow...or a lithuim in the Airush range...if you get my drift, no pun intended. Or definetly play around with shortening those back lines a bit to keep it in the right part of the window...
weight and style of kite is something really underestimated and not talked about enough I reckon. Hence why light guys can't take the evo or the lithuim etc very high as they can't get the thing to the edge quick enough to spill air. Its like putting a tractor engine on a scooter.
Just had a demo on a 12m Dice today .
Coming off a couple of years of Rebels i am hoping this is a great kite.
I love the low end power and boost of the Rebel but today the Dice felt a bit Gutless.
Dont get me wrong it felt very smooth and i like the way it loops ,and to be fair the conditions were pretty light and variable ( 12-15knts @ 90 kgs 136 TT ) but it just didnt seem to load up and pull like the Rebel.
I did notice that there is nowhere near the instant depower of the rebel when pushing bar out but the Dice is way more responsive to bar in and out when mowing the lawn and does seem to create its own apparent wind and instantly power up with each push out/in of the bar. Deliberately tried to back stall the kite to no avail.
I am after the elusive kite that can do it all and after reading previous posts ive realised it was on the light setting and i was riding flat water looking for boosting so that may be my problem.
Kite felt very light in the air and powerful enough in the gusts and even tracked upwind against the tide .I am just hoping that its bottom end is not too far away from a Rebel. I am looking forward to doing more than just boosting which is what i am finding is happening on the Rebel.
Maybe with the lines on correct setting it would be better.
Have recently moved to Sunshine Coast and looking to do many downwinders in the surf and thats where i have found the Rebel terrible.
Might have to also Demo this years Park as i would be interested to see how it stacks up.
Came from 2011 Parks to Rebels and havent looked back but ,they were a very ordinary kite .... just dont want to go backwards but also want to try other things and the Dice feels and sounds good
Robert,
I have the 2011 rebel which is as you say not the best for DWers, After my one session on the 12m dice it's way way better than the rebel for waves and DWers which is 70-80% of my riding. I feel it doesn't have the bottom end the 2011 rebel had but that's ok as long as I can get 15 knots out of it I am happy. I think I will get better bottom end out of a wider board than the 6" wam as well.
Hoping the 10m will be my Perth 18-22 knot kite, similar to the 9m rebel which I used 90% of the time over the last three years
For me the Dice are at the top of my list, want to try a 2014 reo to see if it compares or has the power to pull my chunky arse around.
Well we did a number of downwinders in exmouth, it excels for this. I get in trouble for saying this all the time but by Christ the rebel isn't a wave kite. Those who say it is great need to get their ass on a REO / Neo and see what a wave kite really is. And it seems the dice as well. Still reckon, the REO has it slightly pipped but the difference for a mere mortal like me is irrelevant. The 2014 may have increased that gap but we need a back to back with both from the same rider on the same day if one is keen.
Robert the rebel is a higher aspect kite, with more swept back wingtips it will hunt the edge of the window more than say the dice, REO, drifter, BWS pro, best Cabo, etc etc etc....it is more efficient. Longer and thinner is slices through the window to the edge more (this is all in relative terms). You will never get the same bottom end on the dice which is ultimately based on a C kite platform. And also this efficiency allows you to spill power by getting it closer to edge of the window so you won't match its top end either.
Take the edge for example. By bro and I have had say the 11m edge out in stupid winds on strapless SBs. Like 10/ 11 knots and holding ground...yet we had them out in 25 knots, scary as hell the power in your hands, but doable, the wing didn't falter or do stupid things.
The rebel is scaled down compared to the edge but the same aspect principle applies.
My suggestion is you need to prioritise what's important. If low end is the top of your scale then get a rebel. Great you then can do your downwinders in lighter winds and have a sht time at it on a kite that isn't that great for that sort of thing. Or how about this...go a size bigger.
My 10m edge is now an 11m dice, easy.
Oh I still miss my edge though....
If you want better low end get the park. Iv rode my dice a few more times an it's definitely lacking in the low end department. There is definely a gutless feel but I'm hoping more time on the kite will change my technique from the parks an get some better low end
Is there anyone who has tested enough sizes to find out which size is the 'sweet size'?
I know it is dependent on the riders weight and the conditions but most kite designs tend to have one particular size excelling over the others in its particular range.
Well I have ridden the 8,9,11 and 12.
One thing is apparent is that the wings characteristics remains constant throughout the sizes, which was something I wanted to make sure for similar reasons you talk about.
Also what is apparent is the kite to me performs best on 22m lines and as a 4 line set up, loses a lot of low end on the fifth line setup, more grunty on 4.
Also the factory setting I think purposely so, allows the front lines to stretch over time giving a better low end the more you ride it (see above).
Sweet size? That depends. For me I love the 8m in the surf as you can fang it around corners and ride aggressively down the line etc as per most kites in the smaller sizes. But I'm only 75kg, the 80 to 85k guys are on 9m for this.
The 12 is doable in the surf, but you gotta hold back a little and becomes more a park and ride sort of surfing kite.
For boost and float my fav is the 11m. 12m takes a little more edging and technique and the larger wing pulls you more downwind (one thing is apparent I reckon there is a 1.5m gap between the 11 and the 12, the 12 looks a lot larger in the sky next to each other).
The 11 still allows vertical lift off but gives you that canopy for float and hangtime.
But that goes for all the kites I have had. My fav was the 11m edge for this, the 10m edge was good but not the same. My 11 rebel was the best for jumping.
So the sweet kite is the one that suites your purpose.
Lack of low end observations I don't concur with, although I'm not doubting the observations made as how you see it, is how you see it, but all I can say is my comparison is with an edge, which will kill most kites low end per size if used correctly and I can't see a problem at all. There is a knack to it. Once you get dialed in it flies upwind to your mark.
I have seen some remarkable things by an 85kg rider on a 12m on a 134 NHP low end wise (not the most efficient board), but he is a damn good rider.
Yeh Park, Dice, or the airush Wave would be the kites I'd be doing a comparison demo with.
But you know the other day (and not related to the dice) I was out at Avalon with two other blokes. One on a 12m lithuim and an airush cypher, one on a 10m BWS Noise and a Laluz TT and me on a 150 Mako and my zephyr (yes I was lit of my tits) all on different gear, all having an absolute blast. I watched with envy as the cypher guy (robbie) can ride toeside both ways due to his wind surfing background and was killing it...man wish I was goofy! Great guys, great wind, great surf...all good.
All the gear works well in the hands that suite it. Try heaps of kites, that's what I did. Even though I get a lot of flack I say stick it up your ass, because how do you know until you have tried different stuff?
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
Yeh I lose myself all the time...ha ha ha
Nah the red safety line then....why I ask is when I rode my new kites it was real slack relative to the front lines. As I got near 20 or so sessions the red safety line is now taught as the front lines have stretched ....giving progressively a better bottom end and closer to the tuning I would normally have. Hence why I didn't adjust the back lines.
107kg, Christ, yeh 15 knots on a SB for sure, you are a big boy!! You'd fly a lot of wings to the edge of the window quickly with that weight, reckon you might want a more grunty kite that sits back a little more, like an evo in the north range anyhow...or a lithuim in the Airush range...if you get my drift, no pun intended. Or definetly play around with shortening those back lines a bit to keep it in the right part of the window...
weight and style of kite is something really underestimated and not talked about enough I reckon. Hence why light guys can't take the evo or the lithuim etc very high as they can't get the thing to the edge quick enough to spill air. Its like putting a tractor engine on a scooter.
Wow, that is a lot of line stretch mate, are you sure something else hasn't happened? The kite I used was a well abused demo kite and the red line was annoyingly loose, with the kite fully powered. These new North lines are supposed to be the dogs nuts with as close to zero stretch as possible.....
Yeh I don't believe that, even the best front lines will stretch. But maybe they will have a certain stretch before they stop so you don't have to keep adjusting like the old lines. On the 2012 bar I was tuning after every 5 rides or so to keep that 5th line a little slack when full powered.
The Cab one is designed so it's impossible to tell the stretch, apart from by the performance, I do like this design though, it keeps that line nice and tight out of the way. Had another 2 kites on my drifter the last couple of days, I must say I miss the jumping and exhilaration of the Dice, may have to trade the more wave performance in the Drifter and learn to dial in the Dice in the waves...
In regards to the red safety line - Eppo check if it's twisted itself. We had a guy here last season who rides Evo's on the Quad Control bar and he was forever doing loops & spins in one direction. His red safety line had twisted and twisted itself so much that it was now loaded instead of his front lines.
I would be my bottom dollar that your new lines haven't stretched that much, that quickly. If they have you've either got a dud set or you're doing something wrong! 
Drew
My money is on the last part of the last sentence...lol!
Will look again next time I'm out to confirm. If they haven't stretched that much and I am spinning the same way too much I will be hitting those bar ends, like my kites to nearly stall when fully powered.
Hey Paul that drifter must be a bloody good wave kite then, I can't fault the dice. We were like giggling school girls after some downwinders in exmouth. Couldn't believe how easy it made some relatively perilous waves seem, just couldn't mess up.
Yeh will check and report back. next time I'm out. Been zephyr weather lately.
If it's the safety line, just take the ring off of the end, pull it through the iron heart and run it through your hands from where it attaches to the front lines. It'll pull most of the twists out and you can just put it back in.
Or just start spinning the other way.
I quite like this kite in 4 line mode when unhooking. You gotta go with this kite for a while and dial it in. Feels a little squishier than the Vegas but its more than up for the job.
Just try it!
After trying the dice coming from my park I would definitely go a size bigger if I were to get one or go for the longer lines. Ideally big and small kite with two bars with short and long lines. As a wave kite I reckon it's better than the park. But it doesn't have the raw c kite feel the park has. Dice is better for a soft ride with a bad back and shot knees. Heaps less power in the loops.
I had a quick spin on an 8 mt dice in ankle biting waves yesterday. I must say, this is a very nice kite. Super smooth, easy to loop, and plenty of low end. Generates speed pretty damn quick, shuts down when you want it to. Waves were way too small to feel the drift qualities, so I can't comment on that. The kite was set up in 5 line mode, I think if I had a kite like this I would run it as a 4 line for simplicity. I would put this kite down as a winner. Still love my Trx's, but this kite is VERY good.
One thing I did notice is it has the bow kite trait of falling to the side and needs constant input to steer it back up, the park doesn't do that.
Yeah, I didn't notice that at all, I found if anything it wanted to fly up. Anyway, given all the great in depth reviews on here, I have bitten the bullet and decided on a dice quiver, off to the shop to strike a deal !!! Cheers guys !!
You won't be disappointing bud. Flew them up north recently. I've been flying rebels for 4 years now so I'm very familiar with north.
I don't know about the other sizes however the 9mtr took me all of 2 minutes to dial in. Very easy to fly. I did however feel the power was a touch less to a comparable sized rebel but then again it wasn't honking so I didn't get to test it out under nuking conditions. Could be a different story up in the higher wind ranges.
If I hadn't just bought new rebels I wouldn't hesitate scoring a couple :)
Select to expand quoteIf you haven't been riding C kites you won't notice it. Walking out or riding with kite at around 10 o'clock and let bar out or drift it back and you will require input to steer it up, I.e. Top wing tip wants to fall over bottom wing tip, liked the kite though and so easy to steer with one hand. Just requires more top hand further up barquote]eppo said..
Falling to the side? Explain?
Hi Guys
I just purchased a 12m Dice last week - im 100kg - took it out in 14-17kts on a 6'1 SB first in small waves at Brighton - very enjoyable - could have had a few more kts though - im new to riding SB - so struggled to ride upwind - i then jumped on my TT - & from im reading above its true - you can squeeze more power out of this kite if you work it hard - anyways the wind picked up to between 18-25kts - this kite then really came alive - fell in love immediately - turns fast - great feel - drifts well - & can booost high - I have been using 2013 edges (been kiting for 12mnths now)- these will be moved on now though as I feel this kite can cover both disciplines that i want to pursue - wave & freestyle. Looking to get a 14m Evo as LW Kite
Note - Dice was set to Hard Setting
Great to here. It will never jump like the edge though, one aspect I miss. But you can't have it all and it jumps good enough to not be too bothered.
Well a little...lol
Consider a zephyr for your light wind kite hey, it has some similar charactistics to the dice, don't ask me why, but it sits in the same part of the window giving you that constant feedback. That is the principle reason I went the dice, would have rather stayed totally with ozone, but....
light wind kites are designed as such, just scaling up a kite and making it bigger in my mind doesn't always work. And as rob from ozone explained the other way to, hence no plans on smaller zephyrs, which I understand.
Shame, if he could do it, I'd buy the zephyr smaller zephyr sizes today!! Out today on the flat, crew on 12m (dices actually) and myself and my bro on the zephyr powered to the tits but having a ball. One guy on the 12m dice was throwing down some awesome dark slides and fully powered back roll back loops...sweet to watch. 
cheers for the feedback eppo - I have a 17m Edge that im keeping as my LW kite -love that kite - basically want the 14m Evo as next size down for riding 12-18kts on TT & SB, a lot quicker turning so i hear & is OK in the waves...will be replacing the 13 edge - like you say the edges boost to the moon but ill be happy with the height the dice can give me & hopefully the Evo too on the TT...want to progress to kiteloops now & doesnt seem to be a strong point with the edges apart from experienced riders...
Ah that makes sense now. Sweet. Yep for ultra light winds the edge/ dyno and aspect are A1. I get ya now on the evo kite. Cool.
Must say I am exploring the unhooking paradigm of the zephyr right now and its a blast. Although I probably look as stupid as I feel. Ultimately my aim is to unhook the dice in the waves, as lets face it it makes so much sense when you think about centre of gravity, body positioning etc. I'm not after wake style trickery (s bend will be all thanks to blind maybe at a pinch) too old, too slow and two kids! But it does give you also an appreciation for what those guys do and what incredible riders they all are.
Two styles impress the hell out of me
1. Full blown wake style leave nothing at the door kiting
2. Arial work on SBs strapless...wow!
That's another thing the 13m edge lacks unless you are a super duper immortal rider. Yeh the looping (i presume you mean mega looping, downloops and all that jazz no probs) on the edge as well, its possible but don't get it wrong as I have done and given my lower intestine a free purge. Bowels squeaky clean....
wow so much great info on this thread.
Fly 9 & 11 m rebels at the moment on 24m lines, which I love, but looking at using a 7m dice to learn some unhooked freestyle as well as get better in the waves
I am just curious what the main differences are between the 22 & 24m line lengths? Also any advice on going a 4 or 5 line bar? As this is going to be my high wind kite in 25-35 knots I would feel very safe with the fifth for obvious reasons, however considering a 4 line bar for the direct feel I liked when flying my mates park last year? Any thoughts?
(I'm 63kg, ride a 132 X-ride and 5'5 sb strapless)
cheers elise
